Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Hereandnow »

If there is no God, then everything is permitted.-- Ivan from Dosteovski's Brothers Karamosov

I think this should be taken seriously; and atheism is just as lame as theism. Very early in the game.
Lambert
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Lambert »

Harbal wrote:
Lambert wrote: freeloader
This is the second time you have used that word while addressing me. Are you trying to tell me something?
No, nothing for you in the particular, but only to say that if the mythology is in charge of destiny for us, believers just do what believers should do. All that means is that hither and thither they go because also the shepherds knows that hither and thither they must go, and while doing this the good shepherd has a chance to do his thing inside the flock.

It so is a hands-off non-rational mystery religion that is also most opposite to Christian as such.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Belinda »

Lambert wrote:
Ok, the indoctrination is iconic only, to say that it only bears witness to truth and so is not true in the literal sense of the word. This would mean that it is there for us to encounter in life and will have our name on it then as prior to us.
I tried to infer an actual claim within your devious language , Lambert.

Children are indoctrinated into believing that supernatural stories are literally, historically, and scientifically true. Religious stories are not like fairy stories that are told in such a way that the child knows they are only stories.
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Lambert
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Lambert »

Hereandnow wrote:If there is no God, then everything is permitted.-- Ivan from Dosteovski's Brothers Karamosov

I think this should be taken seriously; and atheism is just as lame as theism. Very early in the game.
Right and it is against the stream of consciousness that liberty must be found, "as a brick" I think Mitya was called.

-- Updated June 12th, 2015, 4:56 pm to add the following --
Belinda wrote:Lambert wrote:
Ok, the indoctrination is iconic only, to say that it only bears witness to truth and so is not true in the literal sense of the word. This would mean that it is there for us to encounter in life and will have our name on it then as prior to us.
I tried to infer an actual claim within your devious language , Lambert.

Children are indoctrinated into believing that supernatural stories are literally, historically, and scientifically true. Religious stories are not like fairy stories that are told in such a way that the child knows they are only stories.
I suppose Belinda but would it not be expected that adults learn beyond what was told to them before the age of reason began? I really do not know what they teach, but remember a picture in a Catechism that showed a stairway to heaven in the back-door of the church. Not the front door is what the message was here.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Harbal »

Lambert wrote: All that means is that hither and thither they go because also the shepherds knows that hither and thither they must go,
I prefer to go hither and yon, myself.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Neopolitan »

Lambert wrote:Right and it is against the stream of consciousness that liberty must be found, "as a brick" I think Mitya was called.
Coincidentally, there is a phrase that ends in "as a brick" that often comes to mind when I read your stuff, Lambent, but it has nothing to with Mitya (I've no idea who or what that is though).

As an example of how myths can be made quite simply:
Lambert wrote:I really do not know what they teach, but remember a picture in a Catechism that showed a stairway to heaven in the back-door of the church.
Lambert wrote:All that means is that hither and thither they go because also the shepherds knows that hither and thither they must go, and while doing this the good shepherd has a chance to do his thing inside the flock.
Clearly this is telling us that the flock should be going hither and thither (rather than hither and yon), so that the "good shepherd" has the chance to do his thing in at least one member of the flock, usually an altar boy or some other unfortunate. If the flock stops running hither and thither, we have such messy things as the Independent Panel Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and Royal Commission into Institutional Child Sexual Abuse (I looked but if the US is doing something similar, it's very difficult to find information on their efforts - the encyclopaedia that dares not speak its name mentions institutional child abuse at the hands of "god shepherds" (read as "Catholic clergy"), but the article is silent on any organised attempt by the US government or justice system to investigate the extent of the problem.)

Ignorance seems to have worked very well for those who would abuse their position and I wonder whether there are others within Catholicism who have the same dedication to ignorance that you seem to have, Lambent (for example, not even reading the book which details what it is that you supposedly believe). It would be a rich environment for all sorts of horrors.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Lambert »

Neopolitan wrote:
Lambert wrote:Right and it is against the stream of consciousness that liberty must be found, "as a brick" I think Mitya was called.
Coincidentally, there is a phrase that ends in "as a brick" that often comes to mind when I read your stuff, Lambent, but it has nothing to with Mitya (I've no idea who or what that is though).

As an example of how myths can be made quite simply:
Lambert wrote:I really do not know what they teach, but remember a picture in a Catechism that showed a stairway to heaven in the back-door of the church.
Lambert wrote:All that means is that hither and thither they go because also the shepherds knows that hither and thither they must go, and while doing this the good shepherd has a chance to do his thing inside the flock.
Clearly this is telling us that the flock should be going hither and thither (rather than hither and yon), so that the "good shepherd" has the chance to do his thing in at least one member of the flock, usually an altar boy or some other unfortunate. If the flock stops running hither and thither, we have such messy things as the Independent Panel Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and Royal Commission into Institutional Child Sexual Abuse (I looked but if the US is doing something similar, it's very difficult to find information on their efforts - the encyclopaedia that dares not speak its name mentions institutional child abuse at the hands of "god shepherds" (read as "Catholic clergy"), but the article is silent on any organised attempt by the US government or justice system to investigate the extent of the problem.)

Ignorance seems to have worked very well for those who would abuse their position and I wonder whether there are others within Catholicism who have the same dedication to ignorance that you seem to have, Lambent (for example, not even reading the book which details what it is that you supposedly believe). It would be a rich environment for all sorts of horrors.
Yes but you must also remember that the adult Catechism in America is written in English and that is a different language for me, and in Holland we never had one I think. Religion ended there at grad4e 6.

As for the clergy? In Holland we decided that they were all protestant converts seeking refuge in the cloth. That was in the bar, mind you, but it seemed unanimous and sounded so right. I think that there was a publication of some sort that suggested it and gave us some reason to agree.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Belinda »

Lambert wrote:

I suppose Belinda but would it not be expected that adults learn beyond what was told to them before the age of reason began? I really do not know what they teach, but remember a picture in a Catechism that showed a stairway to heaven in the back-door of the church. Not the front door is what the message was here.
No, I don't expect that to happen. It sometimes does happen that a child who has been indoctrinated rebels in later life, but that rebellion should be unnecessary in life which is already over- full of educational and emotional challenges for the growing boy or girl. No teacher worth her salt will willingly tell a child lies. It is invariably a lie to tell a child that the Biblical miracles are scientifically and historically true. You only need to read posts here on these forums to see that many adults are bewildered by the discrepancies between science and religion.

You might have noticed that I support religion in principle, but that I also advocate its reform.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Jklint »

Hereandnow wrote:If there is no God, then everything is permitted.-- Ivan from Dosteovski's Brothers Karamosov
I once thought about this statement, but no-longer, wondering what it's implications are, if its profound, as most people assume or only a gross hyperbole. I opted for the latter because if we require a god to restrain us or else "everything is permitted" that would virtually condemn the Universe itself as being malicious. If that were the case then that which calls itself human would be its true Satanic masterpiece and evolution, in whatever form, would only serve to make the creature more evil.

I always considered Ivan as the intellectual dimwit in the story.

-- Updated June 13th, 2015, 12:30 am to add the following --
Harbal wrote:
Lambert wrote: All that means is that hither and thither they go because also the shepherds knows that hither and thither they must go,
I prefer to go hither and yon, myself.
For those who follow the Sheppard who follows the Sheep, yon is not a destination. However, if the Sheep followed the Sheppard it would have been the Sheppard who was followed first and he would know where Yon was. Yon's location depends on the sequence being precise or they could end up on Main Street.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Neopolitan »

Belinda wrote:You might have noticed that I support religion in principle
The Aztecs had a religion which involved child sacrifice (and other human sacrifice). The ancient Egyptian religion had the rich being buried with their murdered staff, so as to ensure that they would be looked after properly in the next world. Vikings had a similar idea in the "retainer sacrifice" (although it was carried out with less fuss). Turning to fiction, the Lord of Light demands the blood of a king (accessible via the child of a king) to vouchsafe a true vision and a death for a promise of victory.

In light of these practices, do you support these religions in principle? Note that I am fully aware that you talked of reform. I am not asking whether you think these religions might benefit from reform, I am asking if you support these religions in principle. Be aware that there is a trap in this question (a trap that Londoner kept avoiding by being infuriatingly vague, but this option isn't quite available to you since the answer to my question is either "yes" or "no", and if you refuse to answer with a simple "yes" or "no" then it's up to the reader to read the "yes" or "no" into your attempt to avoid giving a straight answer - I've already got an answer set aside for you, just in case :) ).
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Belinda »

Neopolitan, I simply don't know enough to comment upon whether or not I should include those horrors with religion. I understand that at some eras and places there has been no such thing as religion as a separate control from the collective's kingly sort of power, but that the priest was also the king and there were not the two separable elite roles. There was a priest-king and that was that, excepting also that the priest-king had to be strong and young and when his days of youthful power were over he was ceremonially killed and another man took on the role.

'Religion' as we have been discussing it seems to mean either that means of control which is often in cahoots with the state especially at times when for one reason and another nobody is rebelling against the status quo; and 'religion' in the role of opposition to the state, or potential opposition rather like those governor components on steam engines.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Logic_ill »

Considering that many of my high school Friends are now religious, and many of them were "hell on wheels" (not that I wasn't), it may be dangerous to live in an absolutely atheistic world.

Religions seem to offer the structure some people need, so that they can somehow discipline themselves and religions may provide a justification for them. I've been an agnostic almost my entire life and found that structure or discipline in the searching and learning, and also in physical exercise. I lost the discipline a while back, for a number of reasons I wont go into, but I mention it because I suppose people need to make sense of the world and their existences. There are many different ways of doing so, but religion is a very popular one. I cannot imagine the blow religious people would receive if they suddenly had to perceive the world and life as godless. If an atheistic world is to happen, I think it will take some time. But people keep indoctrinating their children into their belief systems, so the ideas will always be around for those interested in taking them up.


An atheistic world may be dangerous for those people who are utterly convinced that there is a god and that their religions or belief systems are "the only way". It may be too crushing for them to think otherwise because they have made religion or their beliefs the thing that drives them or gives them the discipline (the manner in which they choose to live their lives). They have committed themselves to their ideas.

I very much like to discipline myself. I enjoy being driven to order and improvement. That struggle to do the best that I can (by my own standards) is very important to me, and I somehow hate that I have lost much of it. It feels a bit too chaotic and there's a terrible sense of loss. Anyhow, that is me, who is an agnostic and I consider myself very open to all kinds of thinking, imagine someone who really believes "they KNOW the way". If they are flexible enough, they will be able to adapt to something new or find some other ideas/activities that drive them, but I'm not sure there are many people out there with that mind set.
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Elder »

I strongly believe that the only sustainably safe world would be one in which neither religion, nor atheism is a subject anyone is aware of.

As long as belief without, and often in spite of, evidence is embraced by the masses, they are prey to unscrupulous politicians, business people, advertisers, clergy, media and other manipulators of the public mind to trick them into acting against their own self interest.

That is the biggest danger inherent in religion. :(
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Hereandnow »

Jklint: I once thought about this statement, but no-longer, wondering what it's implications are, if its profound, as most people assume or only a gross hyperbole. I opted for the latter because if we require a god to restrain us or else "everything is permitted" that would virtually condemn the Universe itself as being malicious. If that were the case then that which calls itself human would be its true Satanic masterpiece and evolution, in whatever form, would only serve to make the creature more evil.
One does have to put aside the big man in the sky notion, which we can agree is contrived and more than a little silly, to take Ivan seriously.

Think of God as just some metaphysical grounding of morality, not to put too fine a point on it. So, here is an interesting question: What if we knew for certain, no question, that there was no metaphysical grounding for morality? Would the world be different?
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Re: Atheistic world will be dangerous?

Post by Elder »

Hereandnow wrote:What if we knew for certain, no question, that there was no metaphysical grounding for morality? Would the world be different?
Hereandnow, can you explain what you mean by "metaphysical grounding for morality"?

I think I know what you mean but I want to make sure.
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
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