What do you believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Newme
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Newme »

detail wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 9:27 am Some people , just like to believe in the beliefs of those who believe. This may sound dumb but just think about doxastic logic , and take this as a strange variation of a modest reasoner the stable reasoner . See for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxastic_logic . A modest reasoner \forall_p : B(Bp-> p) -> Bp here the kripke structure then implements the believe in the Believe of thos who believe . \forall_p : B(Bp)->Bp as a formulation the stable reasoner.
Do you mean herd mentality - tribalism?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Greatest I am
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Re: What do you believe?

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I am a Gnostic Christian who has labelled Yahweh a demiurge and have condemned him to hell.

Not that either Yahweh or hell are real.

Gnostic Christianity does not hold any supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL
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Newme
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Newme »

Greatest I am wrote: June 18th, 2021, 1:47 pm I am a Gnostic Christian who has labelled Yahweh a demiurge and have condemned him to hell.

Not that either Yahweh or hell are real.

Gnostic Christianity does not hold any supernatural beliefs.

Regards
DL
Interesting. Please expand.

My impression is Gnostics were the 1st Christians - even before the time of Yeshua/Jesus, and saw Christ as a spirit, not a person. I agree with that, and also about the implication that the Bible is written by flawed humans - who projected their illusion ideas onto what many consider God. Not sure if I completely agree with sin as being pure illusion - I do see some objective morality - but I see truth in some subjectivity and truth in various perspectives and circumstances.

And there’s some I disagree with like, viewing material existence as flawed or evil.

Please share your thoughts.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Greatest I am
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Greatest I am »

Let me speak here to the foolishness of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Greatest I am »

Newme

I see the bible as being compiled to further dialog and discussion before the literal reading of myths.

I see the Gnostic scriptures as being compiles to show how vile Yahweh was.

Christians somehow don't get that huge moral divide while Gnostic Christians do.

We do our best to correct in a loving way but do hurt many.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

big think

Further.
moyers/journal/03

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

Apologies.

Stupid made me remove links.

Regards
DL
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detail
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by detail »

Newme wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:37 pm
detail wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 9:27 am Some people , just like to believe in the beliefs of those who believe. This may sound dumb but just think about doxastic logic , and take this as a strange variation of a modest reasoner the stable reasoner . See for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxastic_logic . A modest reasoner \forall_p : B(Bp-> p) -> Bp here the kripke structure then implements the believe in the Believe of thos who believe . \forall_p : B(Bp)->Bp as a formulation the stable reasoner.
Do you mean herd mentality - tribalism?

More than this a philosophical attitude, that is expressed formally in doxastic logic. The kripke Structure here plays an interesting role in this, the worlds are here ordered in a graph like in elementary probality theory , where events take place , and the word changes . For example if you toss a coin.

Start
| |
head numbers

So the Belief includes always in doxastic logic a graph structure of reality at the beginning of the Graph the coin wasn't tossed. In the next level
the result is either head or numbers. This is included in the word belief and the logical operator that acts on this structure is the Belief -operator .

The Kripke-structure consists of:

Clarke et al.[3] define a Kripke structure over AP as a 4-tuple M = (S, I, R, L) consisting of

a finite set of states S.
a set of initial states I ⊆ S.
a transition relation R ⊆ S × S such that R is left-total, i.e., ∀s ∈ S ∃s' ∈ S such that (s,s') ∈ R.
a labeling (or interpretation) function L: S → 2AP.

Which can be the previously defined scenario. The evaluation of the variables of doxastic logic and the belief operator are done locally on the set of states where variables and the operator act after the scenario. :lol:
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detail
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by detail »

Newme wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:37 pm
detail wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 9:27 am Some people , just like to believe in the beliefs of those who believe. This may sound dumb but just think about doxastic logic , and take this as a strange variation of a modest reasoner the stable reasoner . See for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxastic_logic . A modest reasoner \forall_p : B(Bp-> p) -> Bp here the kripke structure then implements the believe in the Believe of thos who believe . \forall_p : B(Bp)->Bp as a formulation the stable reasoner.
Do you mean herd mentality - tribalism?
For futher information i refer to https://staff.fnwi.uva.nl/n.bezhanishvi ... ctures.pdf
and https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 015-0834-x
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Re: What do you believe?

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MyshiningOne wrote: April 22nd, 2007, 12:49 am If you are religious, which one do you practice?
I am a Gnostic Christian.

We tend to let morality guide us in deciding whish of the Jesus archetypes shown in scriptures we will follow.

We see a Roman Jesus, whom we do not like for his morals on his no divorce for women and his substitutional punishment policies.

We also se a more eastern mystical Jesus who dislikes organized religions and has put man above god, where we belong.

I give a sample his words and implications in how we name our god.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
Pls google --- Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
Pls google On Becoming an Adult

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL
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Re:

Post by Greatest I am »

woot wrote: December 30th, 2007, 5:13 pm The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
(Mormon)
Practice is an accurate word
If one supernatural god exists, is that not a proof of concept that there are many such god over gods?

Is that why the first commandment is showing an insecure god?

Regards
DL
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Re:

Post by Greatest I am »

elililly wrote: January 1st, 2008, 2:55 pm I'm a Secular Humanist, and I've started a new topic about it.
The wave of the future.

Have you taken it as far as Laïcité?

Regards
DL
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Greatest I am »

AmericanKestrel wrote: May 25th, 2021, 10:57 am
MyshiningOne wrote: April 22nd, 2007, 12:49 am If you are religious, which one do you practice?
Can you define religious?
Per my definition it is about belonging to an organization, attending services, belief in and worship of a deity, following certain rituals, celebrating feast, and most importantly defining yourself by your religion. More or less.
In that sense I am not religious.
I consider myself an Advaitist, a non-dualist. It is a way of being based on the Vedas/scriptures of Hinduism, not necessarily religious as I define it. There are no Advaita temple as such, for instance.
I do believe in a deity but that deity is within me, not outside of me. So when I pray or worship, which I do, I pray to him who is within me. I study the Vedantic texts and meditate on what I study. This is how I practice my religion.
Ditto to some extent.

I am a dualist though and see it in everything.

I see yin and Yang as complimentary and not oppositions. More like front and back. Different but not necessarily equal.

For instance, evolution. It is a lot more good/Yin, than the bit of evil/Yang, done to the losers of the competitions

Without both, we would go extinct.

What do you see where you do not see it's opposite or complimentary other side?

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: Re:

Post by Greatest I am »

Newme wrote: May 31st, 2021, 6:15 pm
woot wrote: December 30th, 2007, 5:13 pm The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
(Mormon)
Practice is an accurate word
You were ahead of the game - the name rules didn’t officially change until 10 years after you wrote that! Well done!

Nelson said in a statement that the "Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name he has revealed for his church." (IOW: “too many people think we don’t believe in Christ and worship Mormonism more - as we do - so what’s in a name? Plenty - in marketing!!”)


I grew up lds. But I no longer believe in much dogma, including things like human sacrifice scapegoating Catholic votes threw in. I believe in God & try to practice and strengthen that faith.
Better morals than the scapegoat ridders.

Which god do you believe in?

Define/describe it a bit.

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Greatest I am »

Newme wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 10:31 pm

Don’t misinterpret me - I’m not atheist. To me, it makes more sense & is more helpful to believe in God.
Why, when the mainstream gods are such immoral, homophobic, misogynous an and satanic characters?

Regards
DL
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Newme
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Newme »

Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 7:00 pm Let me speak here to the foolishness of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
Thank you for explaining that & for giving me more to consider. If I understand correctly, you & Gnosticism do not dismiss matter - rather that the temptation to focus too much on matter - especially animalistic/worldly/lower drives - ideally, is overcome.

The idea you quoted or Christ teaching seeking until finding - especially through self awareness - is right on! This seeking seems to be of God but ironically how Christianity has evolved - that seeking is shamed. To question human sacrifice scapegoating - no matter how insane it obviously is - to them who have been indoctrinated - is a big no-no. It pains me to see so clearly what many around me do not. Generally, I cherish basic Christian ideas while abhorring immoral & destructive aspects that many embrace as if good.

Re: your thought experiment… what I see often depends so much on my state of mind. But I try to see things as they are - not better or worse, so I escape denial & despair. Yet I try to lean toward positive potential - hope for better.

What you mentioned about this is the best of all possible worlds reminds me of Leibniz. Do you like his &/or Voltaire’s ideas? What do you mean about it based on entropy & the anthropic principle? Do you not see how at least in some significant ways, conditions have improved?

What, would you suggest, is some good Gnostic lit I could read?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Newme
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Re: What do you believe?

Post by Newme »

Greatest I am wrote: June 24th, 2021, 7:08 pm Newme

I see the bible as being compiled to further dialog and discussion before the literal reading of myths.

I see the Gnostic scriptures as being compiles to show how vile Yahweh was.

Christians somehow don't get that huge moral divide while Gnostic Christians do.

We do our best to correct in a loving way but do hurt many.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

big think

Further.
moyers/journal/03

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
I agree a lot with you! If only the Bible was taken as just a tool for more dialogue (word/logos) rather than worshipped in its literal state.

A couple things you mentioned make me curious. Yahweh is considered vile - which seems to mean the Judaic Old Testament - & yet a Rabbi from before Jesus is said to dismiss so much of it. What do you make of Judaism (including the Talmud) - then and now?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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