Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Xris
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Xris »

Fanman my question is philosophical. It concerns the idea that you can be abusive without realising you are. You claim to be constantly receive abusive comments. I was wondering if the example I gave you was an exactly the kind of the abuse you receive. If you found it so, I might not use such words, you would not be so upset. Only trying to help.
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Neznac
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Neznac »

Neznac wrote:When the life is over, when the breathing stops, the beating heart stops, all the organs stop working, and there is no longer any animation, then the life has been extinguished. When the brain no longer functions, there is no cognitive life remaining; there is only death. Yes, the words of that person do continue to exist in one form or another and the memories of the dead person that remain alive in others are still present in life (if that can be called the continuation of her spirit?), but there is no ghost-life that goes on after death.
Fanman wrote:How do you know, that this is the case?
I take it that you are asking me how do I know that there is no ghost-life that goes on after death. How I know is by having given the process of death an exhaustive scientific examination of the facts which have produced conclusive and nearly certain results. I have articulated those scientifically ascertained (no invoking of spirits/souls/gods/demons etc,) explanations which you have conveniently ignored

Of course since you are persuaded by other (purely word-induced) metaphysical factors (the existence of souls and other invisible/intangible spirits) I have failed to convince you of anything. The reason why you remain like an innocent virgin in this philosophical debate, is that you simply ignore the explanitory narratives which explicitly undermine your theistic position. You would rather believe in the efficacy of lofty words (purely impractical, made-up concepts) than acknowledge a rational explanation based entirely in experience and phenomenal evidence.

I have watched you repeatedly ignore those posts of mine where I explain the nature of your belief in imaginary narratives that are holdovers from ancient (perhaps even prehistoric) philosophers. You would rather maintain their integrity over the actual evidence even though their ideas are the empty ravings of innocent (blind) language users.

You've called these posts from me "nonsense" and "ridiculous" and other such terminologies, meanwhile you have passed silently over them without any reference whatsoever to their content. Is that because they disturb your divine nature? Or do they do more than simply disturb? (As the following two quotes show . . .)
Neznac post 671 wrote: Of course Fanman actually believes in God, but he cannot see that in fact his cognition is already under the 'spell' (the language, that is) of our intersubjective realm of understanding. We atheists can now empathise with his unfortunate intellectual deformity and perhaps we just have to accept his "God talk" and understand that he is, in a cognitive sense, a victim of his own access to the powers of intersubjectivity. He will deny this faith in humanity because acceptance would undercut his own supremacy as God's chosen representative, if he accepted our faith, then he would become merely one of us and such humility is not possible for one his own particular brilliance!
and
Neznac in post 684 wrote: I think this is spooky voodoo. This is like talking about ghosts and disembodied minds, neither of which can exist in the phenomenal world I encounter. Again there's a logical and rational explanation for these kinds of conjurings, this is a narrative which is built on words and nothing else, it's the same kind of religious stories and myths that were thought to be real by ancient tribes on every continent some 200 to 300 years ago.
On to the next topic . . .

You have also conveniently admitted that your belief in the anceint religious doctrines gives you a high that is not attainable in the mere and mudane faith in pure human potential, which is all that atheists have to give them hope, purpose and direction. While you are off flying around in NeverNeverLand, your wordy confirmations of the "view from up there" can become like an opiate for those losing their hope and their belief in the positive potential of their fellow humans.
Fanman inpost 681 wrote: your words created an anti-climax to the point that I was trying to make. Effectively, I was attempting to fly high, but you attempted to bring me down.
Fanman wrote:Where in Christianity, in the scriptures, in the New Testament, is death promoted as a path to life?
You're joking, right? Does the name Jesus ring a bell, the term 'cruxifiction' pop out at you? Or have you got some wordy rationalization for how that doesn't really apply here? (Of course the promotion here was the death of one as a path to the "eternal life" of the many!) But even on a more personal scale it is the up-and-coming death of the individual that serves as the guide to the sorts of behaviours and activities that one should/must engage in while living. So it is under the threat of death, and the conjured notions of heaven and hell, that serves as the template for the living of a Christian life.
Fanman wrote:Yes, life is the animation, which ceases upon death, but the soul is the 'part' which transcends death. In that it exists after death.
So now we have settled the original question, "Is Christianity the religion of life or the religion of death?" If life ceases upon death, and then the Christian theology is fixed and aimed at the "after-life" which is death, then it is a religion of death. Since there is no longer any physical/phenomenal animation when death occurs, at that point then life is over. So it is basically irrelevant what Christianity postulates will happen after death, whatever that conceived happening will be, it will not be life or a continuation of what we call life (the animation), that's quite certain. It is for that reason that Christianity is the religion of death, because the focus of its doctrine is on what happens after life is over. (Of course I do realize that the "doctrine" of The Golden Rule, which is really a universal human principle, is aimed at the life of the living, but I am talking about the ultimate purpose of humans being here in the Christian sense, that is all about your death.)
Fanman
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Fanman »

Neznac,

It feels as though you're putting me on trial, that you have the ability to do this is somewhat expected, given your level of intelligence. Anyway, let us proceed [note: For the purposes of staying on topic, I will only respond to those points of yours, which I perceive as salient].
I take it that you are asking me how do I know that there is no ghost-life that goes on after death. How I know is by having given the process of death an exhaustive scientific examination of the facts which have produced conclusive and nearly certain results. 
That is where you and me differ. I have absolute faith in my own ability to determine the truth. That said, I do not ignore science, I take the factors of the proposed theory into consideration, and based upon my own findings, knowledge and experience, I decide whether or not that which is presented as scientific fact, is what it claims to be. I do not deny the ascent of my own senses and cognitive ability.
You're joking, right? Does the name Jesus ring a bell, the term 'cruxifiction' pop out at you? Or have you got some wordy rationalization for how that doesn't really apply here? (Of course the promotion here was the death of one as a path to the "eternal life" of the many!) But even on a more personal scale it is the up-and-coming death of the individual that serves as the guide to the sorts of behaviours and activities that one should/must engage in while living. So it is under the threat of death, and the conjured notions of heaven and hell, that serves as the template for the living of a Christian life.
Jesus' death is not the path to life, the path to life is found in the every word, action and notion of Jesus while he was alive, he is the personification of love, light and truth; not death. It is his life that Christians draw innumerable strength from; not his death. His death served the purpose of carrying the weight of sin upon his soul, and as a means of making him the greatest martyr that has ever lived. His death was for his own glorification, his resurrection for the glory of his father. It was a good plan, and it has worked exceedingly.
So now we have settled the original question, "Is Christianity the religion of life or the religion of death?" If life ceases upon death, and then the Christian theology is fixed and aimed at the "after-life" which is death, then it is a religion of death. Since there is no longer any physical/phenomenal animation when death occurs, at that point then life is over. So it is basically irrelevant what Christianity postulates will happen after death, whatever that conceived happening will be, it will not be life or a continuation of what we call life (the animation), that's quite certain. It is for that reason that Christianity is the religion of death, because the focus of its doctrine is on what happens after life is over. (Of course I do realize that the "doctrine" of The Golden Rule, which is really a universal human principle, is aimed at the life of the living, but I am talking about the ultimate purpose of humans being here in the Christian sense, that is all about your death.)


In your mind maybe. I would say that the first stage of a Christian human's life ceases upon death. As such, if Christians are to inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven after they die upon earth, and you call this “death” then your are by reason of logic, postulating that all those who currently inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven are also dead. However, they are all very much alive! Just in a different state of existence/life. Perhaps we are going into the realm of subjective opinion and semantics here? Because in my eyes, the second stage of life for the Christian, will be a continuation of life, in a heavenly state. They will share the same life as those who currently inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, it is for those reasons, that Christianity is a religion of life.
(Of course I do realize that the "doctrine" of The Golden Rule, which is really a universal human principle, is aimed at the life of the living, but I am talking about the ultimate purpose of humans being here in the Christian sense, that is all about your death.)
My death? Don't make me laugh. I will ascend to light and life everlasting, I have seen it in a vision. I've have seen and been told much in visions, Neznac.

---

Xris, wrote:
Fanman my question is philosophical. It concerns the idea that you can be abusive without realising you are. You claim to be constantly receive abusive comments. I was wondering if the example I gave you was an exactly the kind of the abuse you receive. If you found it so, I might not use such words, you would not be so upset. Only trying to help.

Is that right...Xris? You think that I am the kind of person that doesn't recognise what I am doing? I do not claim to “constantly” receive abusive comments. I point out when I am being abused, by a certain group/clique of atheists on this forum. I simply stated, that in relation to what you said (which was filled with contradictions and illogical standpoints) you were either being disingenuous or you didn't know what you were talking about, that is a fair assessment, nothing personal. You stated: “I think that you're a very sad person” and “Belinda was right, you have no humility. Now, as a philosopher, can you not see the difference in the nature and degree of those comments? I, was commenting upon the veracity of your 'argument' while you, were insulting my person. If you cannot see the difference, then you are as blind as a man. Furthermore, who doesn't get upset when they are insulted, do you think I am afraid to admit that I am upset or angry? If I felt that way, I would let you know, brother. With the kind of help that you want to give me, I'd rather take my chances with the devil. Thanks, but no thanks lol...

I can anticipate what type of response you will give, lets see if I am right.
Last edited by Fanman on August 26th, 2013, 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Cruelsuit1
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Cruelsuit1 »

If Christianity is a religion of life then why does it kill so many more souls than it preserves?

Suppose I ran a torture chamber out of my basement. I fill my chamber with fifty or so random souls I have extracted from the streets. Then I tell them that I am their Lord and savior. All they have to do is affirm this fact and I will release them. A few of them, after I have begun the torture process, scream out their agreement that I am their Lord! I release these two or three individuals to the fresh air above. But the forty-some people who don't make it through the process to my satisfaction are consigned to my meat grinder.

Obviously mine is a torture chamber of "life" since you can get life by obeying me properly. And it is not one of "death" because I gave you the opportunity to live.

Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?
Last edited by Cruelsuit1 on August 26th, 2013, 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Xris
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Xris »

Cruelsuit1 wrote:If Christianity is a religion of life then why does it kill so many more souls than it preserves?
You would have to talk to visionary friend.I think we have one handy.
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Neznac
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Neznac »

Fanman wrote: I do not deny the ascent of my own senses and cognitive ability.
I do not deny the ascent of your own senses and cognitive ability, however, given your absolute disregard of the power of language and your rejection of how our interpretive skills are dependent upon our linguistic framework, I must wonder at how you arrive at determining the meaningful content of your experience under such constrained and limited resources?
Fanman wrote:Jesus' death is not the path to life, the path to life is found in the every word, action and notion of Jesus while he was alive, he is the personification of love, light and truth; not death. It is his life that Christians draw innumerable strength from; not his death. His death served the purpose of carrying the weight of sin upon his soul, and as a means of making him the greatest martyr that has ever lived. His death was for his own glorification, his resurrection for the glory of his father. It was a good plan, and it has worked exceedingly.
Nicely put Fanman, but very few of the Christians I know live their lives extolling the love, light, or truth of Jesus's life. They mostly appreciate his death for their benefit and the rest goes in one ear and out the other.
Fanman wrote: As such, if Christians are to inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven after they die upon earth, and you call this “death” then your are by reason of logic, postulating that all those who currently inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven are also dead.
All those who currently inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven? Yes Fanman, they are as dead as Frodo and the Lord of the Rings, like Harry Potter and Voldemort . . . always interesting to encounter through the various narratives, but for all intents and purposes they are all dead. Immortalized through the words of their writers, they can still have an impact on the lives of those who are living and reading about them, but otherwise they are dead.
Fanman wrote:However, they are all very much alive! Just in a different state of existence/life. Perhaps we are going into the realm of subjective opinion and semantics here?
Perhaps???
Fanman wrote: Because in my eyes, the second stage of life for the Christian, will be a continuation of life, in a heavenly state. They will share the same life as those who currently inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, it is for those reasons, that Christianity is a religion of life.
Well now, you are just scaring me a little bit. I didn't realize how deeply invested you were into the Christian theology, and I was just being facetious when I said that you had your mouth on the "ear of God" - perhaps I'll have to step back and reassess my position before you have the Lord strike me with a bolt of lightning (just kidding, really . . . kidding :D !).

Just think about it for a second Fanman, there are over a billion Hindus here, nearly a billion Buddhists, and closing in on a billion atheists in the human population. Only 2.5 billion Christians and hardly any of those are authentic practitioners of the faith (at least not in the way you practise it). How can this be? What have those who inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven told you about that, is there some great conversion in the works? Are you in any way destined to lead this awakening?
Fanman wrote: My death? Don't make me laugh.
Why do I get a visual of Darth Vader at this point?
Fanman wrote: I will ascend to light and life everlasting, I have seen it in a vision. I've have seen and been told much in visions, Neznac.
Well, now I want to know at least some of your secret knowledge. You can decide what information is appropriate for dispersal. Perhaps you might start a new thread?
Fanman
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Fanman »

Neznac, wrote:
I do not deny the ascent of your own senses and cognitive ability, however, given your absolute disregard of the power of language and your rejection of how our interpretive skills are dependent upon our linguistic framework, I must wonder at how you arrive at determining the meaningful content of your experience under such constrained and limited resources?
Hold your horses friend. I do not disregard the power of language or reject the dependence of our interpretive skills upon our linguistic framework. I just don't give them the same authority in my mind that you do. Our minds do not only interpret things by the above method, we also recognise pictures, patterns, sounds and a plethora of other qualia. Therefore, there is nothing what-so-ever, “constrained” about my mental resources, if that were the case how would I engage in extensive philosophical discussion. You are not talking to a blind man, Neznac.
Nicely put Fanman, but very few of the Christians I know live their lives extolling the love, light, or truth of Jesus's life. They mostly appreciate his death for their benefit and the rest goes in one ear and out the other.


Is that right...? Maybe they just haven't heard it right, that can always change. People are pretty smart, they just need good teachers. I have had the best.
Just think about it for a second Fanman, there are over a billion Hindus here, nearly a billion Buddhists, and closing in on a billion atheists in the human population. Only 2.5 billion Christians and hardly any of those are authentic practitioners of the faith (at least not in the way you practise it). How can this be? What have those who inhabit the Kingdom of Heaven told you about that, is there some great conversion in the works? Are you in any way destined to lead this awakening?
Perhaps, someone has to, why not me? I have zeal, I have the attitude, I have the will, and importantly, adversity is nothing to me.
Why do I get a visual of Darth Vader at this point?
Err, because you like Star Wars?
Well, now I want to know at least some of your secret knowledge. You can decide what information is appropriate for dispersal. Perhaps you might start a new thread?


Very well, I will share something with you, its nothing secret though. When I was just 18 years old, I had a vision in the form of a dream, I was in my mothers house and two sentient beings (independent of my dream consciousness) tried to threaten and attack my mother. I stood powerless, but I stood in their way still, they laughed and mocked me knowing I was powerless, and they tried to proceed past me and attack my mother. Out of nowhere I gained the courage to attack them, I grabbed them both by the collar, lifted them of the floor, ran through my house at light-speed, and threw them through my front door window, one after the other, smashing the glass. They landed in my garden, the weaker one transformed into what could be described as a black, repugnant dog and ran away as fast as it could, whilst the stronger one slowly got up, with a look of total horror and shock on it's face, it looked like it had seen a ghost. It slowly arose itself watching me all the way, and then I woke up. The next night, a similar creature appeared in my dream and stated we or I (I can't remember) respect you. From that day forth, my life changed both spiritually and physically. Now I am a lucid dreamer, imagine that eh? Spiritual progression, 17 years in the making and still plenty of time left!

Well that's it, enjoy picking it to pieces and mocking me, but I have told the truth, there is more, which I will perhaps reveal at another-time. I'm not going to start a thread about myself, you should of known that.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Xris
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Xris »

O dear. Tall, good looking and now we fight off demons. Sorry Fanman I never realised the extent of your delusion. You will be happy to know, I will not be entering into debate with you again so please refrain from doing the same with me.All the best xris.
Fanman
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Fanman »

Xris, wrote:
O dear. Tall, good looking and now we fight off demons. Sorry Fanman I never realised the extent of your delusion. You will be happy to know, I will not be entering into debate with you again so please refrain from doing the same with me.All the best xris.
You called them demons; not me. I am tall and good-looking, I have a good physique too. I am glad that you won't be 'debating' with me anymore, you're doing me favour. I asked you to leave me alone; now you're acting as though your the one trying to escape... As I surmised, your response was predictable. Goodbye.

Life is funny, tell the truth about your spiritual experiences and people call you delusional; yet he same person calling me delusional, believes that nature is some kind of god. Classic, foolish, hypocrisy.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Thatsage
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Thatsage »

Fanman, the dream you shared is amazing, thank you for posting that. I don't think I ever dreamt anything quite like that, or at least that I remember any dream of mine so clearly.
Cruelsuit1
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Cruelsuit1 »

Fanman wrote:tell the truth about your spiritual experiences and people call you delusional;
A dream is not a "spiritual" experience. It is a conglomeration of recent events, emotional experiences, and preponderant ideas from the past day or two. They are recalled higgledy-piggledy by the brain while sleeping in a rough approximation of a brief narrative with a semblance of a plot.
Fanman
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Fanman »

Thatsage,
Fanman, the dream you shared is amazing, thank you for posting that. I don't think I ever dreamt anything quite like that, or at least that I remember any dream of mine so clearly.
Thanks brother, hopefully I'll share more, it all depends upon the obvious reactions of the anti-theists. Only joking, I'll share when time feels right. It was very vivid, that's why I can't forget it.

---

Cruelsuit1,
A dream is not a "spiritual" experience. It is a conglomeration of recent events, emotional experiences, and preponderant ideas from the past day or two. They are recalled higgledy-piggledy by the brain while sleeping in a rough approximation of a brief narrative with a semblance of a plot.
And there it is, right on time. The anti-theistic stripping of the spiritual experience. I know the difference between a dream and a spiritual experience. They are two completely different events. There only similarity, is that they happen in the same state of consciousness. How could I have total recall of a "higgledy-piggledy" dream that happened 17 years ago? Explain that, I note that science cannot assist you in this area of philosophical discussion, let's see what you come-up with.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Cruelsuit1
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Cruelsuit1 »

Fanman wrote:How could I have total recall of a "higgledy-piggledy" dream that happened 17 years ago? Explain that, I note that science cannot assist you in this area of philosophical discussion, let's see what you come-up with.
I remember a vivid dream that I had forty years ago. I remember many of my vivid dreams. It is not unusual. Some people don't remember their dreams. Some remember some . Some people have very detailed dreams and detailed recall. Some of my dreams are very extravagant, but if I sit and think about them I can find the correspondence to aspects of the dream and instances that impressed my brain in the previous day.
Fanman
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Fanman »

Cruelsuit1, wrote:
I remember a vivid dream that I had forty years ago. I remember many of my vivid dreams. It is not unusual. Some people don't remember their dreams. Some remember some . Some people have very detailed dreams and detailed recall. Some of my dreams are very extravagant, but if I sit and think about them I can find the correspondence to aspects of the dream and instances that impressed my brain in the previous day.


Okay, not bad, very reasonable from you. However, that is your perception. You cannot superimpose your perception, experiences and understanding of dreaming upon others (not without expecting disagreement anyway), neither can you claim that your position is the fact of the matter, because it is based upon your interpretation, experience and how your mind works things out. Dreams are rarely remembered, because they change from moment to moment, you might remember fragments of the dream, but possibly not enough to remember what the story of the dream was. A spiritual experience in the format of a dream is remembered vividly as though it is something that happened in reality. As such, I can recall every spiritual experience I have had in the dream format, from many years ago (even as a child), to the more recent ones, those will never be forgotten... Only the truth is remembered without alteration after the passing of time.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Michaelpearson
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Re: Why God is a Son of a Bitch

Post by Michaelpearson »

Forget everything for a while You are in a freer state A state in which impossibility poses no real problems Rhyme has become more significant than reason Treason Seemingly appropriate Weirdly obscure Symbolic depictions of significant themes Sometimes shadowy premonitions Possible futures echoing before your eyes...My dreams are reckless
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