Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Londoner
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Londoner »

I do not centre feelings or ideas of good and evil upon a transcendent, personal, God who has qualities incidentally many of which resemble human qualities. On the contrary I attribute feelings and beliefs of good and evil to biology and its derivatives. Do you?
Yes, I do. And if I accept that my feelings of good and evil are aspects of my biological make-up, I have to also accept that although they may be expressed like objective values, they aren't. To say 'I think suffering is bad' is no more a saying something about the nature of suffering than 'I shiver when I'm cold' says something about the nature of cold.

But I don't think good and bad are generally understood that way. For example we have contributors discussing whether God is good or bad. If all our thoughts about good and bad are just projections of our biological make-up, then how can our thoughts be incorrect?

No; my point was that if you choose to believe in an objective standard of good and bad, than that is what it is - a belief. You cannot then subject that choice to an examination, as if it was real, at least not without digging yourself into a philosophical hole.
Wux
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Wux »

Londoner wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


It is not possible within any given context, but it is a claim to exist beyond that context.

It isn't possible for any number to be infinite; infinity is a claim that something is outside numbering.

As a simpler analogy, if I write a story then I can be omnipotent regarding the fates of my characters. This is because I am not part of the story.

Similarly, God cannot be omnipotent if he is inside our world, with us. But God is the idea that there is something beyond our world.
Dear Londoner,

I think you are simply mixing up potence with omnipotence. Powerfulness with all-powerfullness.

Omnipotent means all-powerful. Certain circumstances deny that omnipotence exist. You agree with that.

Thefefore I admit that there are other things that are in the realm of what what power can act upon, but you must admit that the realm over which an infinite power can be expected to act is larger than over which any given POSSIBLE power can act.

This is shown with the boulder example.

The claim of "omnipotence", in question, can not exist beyond any given context if it can't exist in ALL given contexts. Therefore I respectfully reject your claim.

In your simpler analogy, your story's character are submitting to your infinite power over them. But the world exists beyond your characters, like you say. You can say you have power over your characters, but you can't have the same power over all existence.

Omnipotence claims for itself that it has power over all. This claim can't be, much like the writer's will and mind has no power over all existence. It is nice to say that you have power over a realm, which, as you say, an omnipotent entity has over its realm, but the problem is that omnipotence means all power over all realms. This is not possible, as the Boulder example shows.

Your last sentence I beg to propose has nothing to do with the omnipotence question. Any knowledge or belief that there is something outside our world, I don't need a god figure to help me conceptualize. God is one of the ideas to show that, but god is not the only way to show that, it is only one way of an infinite number of ways to show that.

What I see in the problem of the Boulder Example is that it is connected to god and religion. People following god or a religion find they are insulted by getting their god assailed in its ability to have power exercised all over the entire existence.

This insult is figmatory, and is based on a sensitivity. The Boulder Example does not debunk that in your belief god is powerful. God still can and logically be allowed to have power over all existence beyond the boulder problems and similar probles to the boulder problems. This the religious feel is an assault on the power of their god.

No, it is not an assault on god's power. It is to show that power is necessarily not infinite, it can't be.

But your god may have retained power over all other things over which power can exist.

This is not the same as what you said. The reasoning is the same, but the difference exists that I claim that omnipotence can't exist. You claim omnipotence can exist, if you remove certain instances. I say removing the instances removes the quality of ALL from "power over ALL existence". Lots of things remain over which I admit a religious believer's god can exercise power according to the religion's tenets, but that god can't exercise omnipotence, because omnipotence is not possible; not for you, not for me, not for anyone, not even for a god, which can be anything, limited only in qualities by its believers' imagination.
Londoner
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Londoner »

The claim of "omnipotence", in question, can not exist beyond any given context if it can't exist in ALL given contexts. Therefore I respectfully reject your claim.
Boulders exist in only one context, that of material things. The claim of omnipotence is a claim that God exists beyond that context.

As far as we know, there is no context beyond the material world we inhabit, but theists hypothesise that there is this further context, sometimes termed 'spirit' - in which God exists.

We could try to rephrase the paradox for another context, perhaps to be about spiritual boulders in God's world, but presumably as non-material boulders wouldn't have qualities like weight, or even be objects (since they would have no dimensions or location), so I think it would be a challenge!

I think that your version of the paradox introduces another infinite. That because God's infinite powers might be tested in an infinite number of contexts, they could never be shown to be infinite. But that is a different paradox to the boulder one, and it is one which affects any claim of truth.
Your last sentence I beg to propose has nothing to do with the omnipotence question. Any knowledge or belief that there is something outside our world, I don't need a god figure to help me conceptualize. God is one of the ideas to show that, but god is not the only way to show that, it is only one way of an infinite number of ways to show that.
I said that you didn't have to conceptualise your belief as God. But the point is you are conceptualising something outside our world. It would still be odd to conceptualise something like 'absolute good' in order to make judgements about the world - and then criticise your own conception for being bad.
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ReasonMadeFlesh
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by ReasonMadeFlesh »

Suffering is an intrinsically negative state of sentience since conscious mental states are real and irreducible in that they are the only value-attributing things in the entire universe, therefore being deprived of value fulfillment is an automatic, undesirable to the brain, and to the sentient life it is bad because you could do better.

Whether or not someone else values it, is completely irrelevant. What others value however, is relative and thus different, although you will find regularities in nature.

In terms of sentience, the "is" (negative mental state), automatically implies the "ought" to do better.

You don't have to get from the is-ought, since sentient value is intrinsic by virtue of being defined in terms of a physical mechanism, and the "ought" is automatic.

So suffering is an objective wrong.
"A philosopher who does not take part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring." - Ludwig Wittgenstein
Londoner
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Londoner »

...and to the sentient life it is bad because you could do better....

So suffering is an objective wrong.
I don't see how the last sentence follows.

I don't dispute that individuals don't want to suffer, so I agree suffering is 'bad' for them. But I don't think that is the meaning of 'bad' in the context of 'God is bad for allowing suffering'. It can't be - God isn't suffering. 'Objective wrong' requires the notion that we (or God) should care about other the suffering of other sentient life. A notion that we cannot justify by simply observing what suffering feels like.

(I'm off on holiday soon, so can't respond for a while, but thanks for the discussion).
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ReasonMadeFlesh
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by ReasonMadeFlesh »

Londoner wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I don't see how the last sentence follows.

I don't dispute that individuals don't want to suffer, so I agree suffering is 'bad' for them. But I don't think that is the meaning of 'bad' in the context of 'God is bad for allowing suffering'. It can't be - God isn't suffering. 'Objective wrong' requires the notion that we (or God) should care about other the suffering of other sentient life. A notion that we cannot justify by simply observing what suffering feels like.

(I'm off on holiday soon, so can't respond for a while, but thanks for the discussion).
It is deplorable how you reduce objective morality to theism, it is a myth that secular morality is in a crisis...

Not all atheists are moral relativists.

Furthermore, the fact that sentient beings value certain things, then it is therefore an objective moral ought to allow them to have what they value, relative the values may be, it is intrinsically bad to deprive them of them, since they could do "better", because values are fundamentally reducible to desire.
"A philosopher who does not take part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring." - Ludwig Wittgenstein
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ReasonMadeFlesh
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by ReasonMadeFlesh »

Excuse me, I am not a theist.

It is a non-sequitur that I must not be a moral objectivist... which I am by the way, as are many other neuroscientists and antinatalists.

You nihilist morons are the ones living in your God delusion, figuratively speaking.

Ladies and gentlemen we now have another one who reads half a post and jumps the gun - congratulations! :D
"A philosopher who does not take part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring." - Ludwig Wittgenstein
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MindForgedManacle
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by MindForgedManacle »

I think the real problem is that, as a concept, omnipotence is nonsensical. If omnipotence isn't being used to mean 'the capacity to do anything', but instead (in God's case) as the ability to do anything that is coherent, then there is a further problem (for theists): They don't believe God can do anything, such as sinning/evil, anything contrary to his holy and loving nature.

However, those things contrary to God's nature are coherent. I can 'sin' and do things contrary to God's nature, so does that mean I'm more powerful than God?

I doubt theists would accept that, so they've got to redefine omnipotence... again: 'The ability [for God]to do anything that isn't contrary to God's nature and is logically coherent'. But then there's another problem: That means every agent is omnipotent. I can only do things that are within my capacity (i.e not contrary to my nature) and that are logically coherent.

It's just a mess of a concept I think, really.
Wux
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Wux »

Londoner wrote:
We could try to rephrase the paradox for another context, perhaps to be about spiritual boulders in God's world, but presumably as non-material boulders wouldn't ...(etc.)
The boulder problem is not a paradox. A paradox is a statement that can be assigned a truth value, false or true. When you assign a truth value of "true" to a paradoxical statement, then the statement yields a "false". When you assign a "false" to a paradoxical statement, it yields "true". These two mechanisms must act at the same time and in the same respect to a statement if the statement is to be a true paradox.

The boudler example is not a paradox. It is an example to show that true ompnipotence does not exist. It can't exist, it is logically impossible.

The boulder example says nothing about god, in a way as it is necessarily an aspect of god. Not being omnipotent is new for people to think god is that way, but it's nothing new, it's just that people get baffled when they are confronted with this truth. God would be unique to be all-powerful, but because omnipotence is impossible, and therefore not even god can have it, there is nothing special about non-omnipotence. We all possess that, incl. god.

The Boulder example only uses god as a vehicle to show that omnipotence is impossible. It uses the following mechanism of proof:

1. "A" is given.

2. "B" is a necessary and unavoidable subsequence of "A".

3. "B" necessarily renders "A" to be non-existent or false, or untrue, or impossible.

4. Therefore "A" will render "A" impossible. "A" necessarily renders itself impossible.

5. Therefore if "A" is not true, and we start with that, no change occurs, and "A" is not true (or impossible).

6. If "A" is true, then it turns out to be that "A" is not true.

7. Whether we start with "A" being true or else not true, either way we wind up with "A" being not true.

8. Therefore "A" is necessarily not true, in any way, in any word.

This is the mechanism of the Boulder example.

---------

In a paradox,

If "A", then necessarily and unavoidable it follows that "not A".

If "not A", then necessarily and unavoidably it follows that "A".

-------------

In a paradox, you get a flicker effect . In the boulder effect, after you arrive at "not A", no more change can happen.

Therefore the Boulder example is not a paradox.

-- Updated September 17th, 2013, 10:23 pm to add the following --

MindforgedManacle: whew. Finally someone I can agree with. Once an argument requires a proper and bone fide, well-defined word for its meaning, to be redefined, and to allow special cases, which the language definition of the word does not allow, then we get into quagmires.

There was even a direction in philosophy, or a school, which was called "natural language" philosophers, or "normal-" or "common-langue philosophers". I can't even remember their name. This is again a problem, because language changes, and who is to say that the new meaning someone purports the word in the language to have, is not valid.

Language is a convention; we assume that we all understand each word the same way as other people understand them. This is what Natural Language Philosophers based their school on. But the premiss is not valid. There are variations of meaning between SOME words from person to person (not ALL words), and there is the change of the language.

As much as the Natural Language Philosophers were trying to say what their tenet was, they couldn't even say that much with all validity.

This is so sad.
enegue
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by enegue »

ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:Excuse me, I am not a theist.
LOL How much of my post did you read, if you think I mistook you for a theist?
ReasonMadeFlesh wrote:You nihilist morons are the ones living in your God delusion, figuratively speaking.
You on the other hand are living in your SELF-delusion, being witness to the increasing discontent in the world, and not realising that it is an indictment of secular morality.

Cheers,
enegue
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MindForgedManacle
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by MindForgedManacle »

How is the supposed increasing discontent in the world, wherein most people are theists, an indictment of secular morality?
Cruelsuit1
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Cruelsuit1 »

enegue wrote:You on the other hand are living in your SELF-delusion, being witness to the increasing discontent in the world, and not realising that it is an indictment of secular morality.

-- Updated September 18th, 2013, 12:51 pm to add the following --
MindForgedManacle wrote:How is the supposed increasing discontent in the world, wherein most people are theists, an indictment of secular morality?
I would like to hear the answer to this question too.
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MindForgedManacle
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by MindForgedManacle »

Because secularists are taking over, of course! ;)
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Iundrah
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Re: Omnipotence (Boulder) Paradox Resolved

Post by Iundrah »

So omnipotence is logically impossible, why being logically impossible means being impossible?
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