Is education the solution for any problem?

Use this forum to discuss the August 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream by Dr Frank L Douglas
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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One thing education doesn't help with is personality issues, which is something constantly demonstrated on boards like this.
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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By the way, it seems like the "book of the month" selections are almost never philosophy books.
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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mystery wrote: August 19th, 2021, 1:09 am
Sushan wrote: August 18th, 2021, 8:53 pm
mystery wrote: August 18th, 2021, 3:09 am
LuckyR wrote: August 15th, 2021, 2:05 am

If you think educated idiots are dumb, you should see uneducated idiots.
true; very true. the second group tends to be violent often while the educated ones not so much.
I doubt that. We measure the level of education by passing exams and getting degrees. In that context university students have to be considered as a well educated group. And in my country we see how they get involved in picketings and public gatherings to go against the political rule for various reasons, and in most occasions they end up being violent. Either they are not well educated, or there is no actual connection between being violent and being educated.
I think you are correct about the university age. Those working to get higher education can and are more prone to emotionally charged violence. Although in inner cities of some countries the most violence is with those teens that have left the education system completely.

For older persons, I still believe lower education is more likely to be violent than similar age with higher educations.
With that I can agree. Having educational qualifications is something. But having a lifetime of experiences is something else. University students are well educated, and there is no argument about that. But they have seen the life only a bit and think that fighting and getting their rights is the best solution. And with their hot-blooded nature they do not see much far. But when a well educated person is gifted with life experiences he realize violence is not the only or the first solution for problems. But, yes, as you said, for that realization education helps a lot, and that is why we see uneducated elderly people becoming violent with problems when most of the educated eelderly people avoid conflicts. (But occasionally the opposite happens as well)
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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LuckyR wrote: August 19th, 2021, 1:46 am
mystery wrote: August 19th, 2021, 1:09 am
Sushan wrote: August 18th, 2021, 8:53 pm
mystery wrote: August 18th, 2021, 3:09 am

true; very true. the second group tends to be violent often while the educated ones not so much.
I doubt that. We measure the level of education by passing exams and getting degrees. In that context university students have to be considered as a well educated group. And in my country we see how they get involved in picketings and public gatherings to go against the political rule for various reasons, and in most occasions they end up being violent. Either they are not well educated, or there is no actual connection between being violent and being educated.
I think you are correct about the university age. Those working to get higher education can and are more prone to emotionally charged violence. Although in inner cities of some countries the most violence is with those teens that have left the education system completely.

For older persons, I still believe lower education is more likely to be violent than similar age with higher educations.
A quick stroll through the prison system will answer this simple question that seems to elude some.
Seemingly you are referring to those who get imprisoned for violent behaviours, thefts, and murders. Yes, many of them are less privileged, less educated, and mostly non-employed. And almost all who have done crime with sudden rage are people with less education.

But we can even find master minds from prisons, who are well educated and have used their high IQ and education to run the world of crimes. And the extremely intelligent ones are not found in prisons or anywhere else because they are too smart to be caught with whatever the crimes that they do.
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:48 am By the way, it seems like the "book of the month" selections are almost never philosophy books.
Seemingly you are dissatisfied with the choice of the books for BOTM forum. These books are chosen out of the suggestions by the members, and also out of the books which are currently read by most readers. And as I see there are many philosophical aspects that have been discussed and can be discussed in these books.

Please be kind enough to name some philosophical books that you prefer and we can try to include them in the future discussions. Thank you
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:46 am One thing education doesn't help with is personality issues, which is something constantly demonstrated on boards like this.
Personality issues and personality disorders are two different things. Personality disorders cannot be helped with education, but have to be treated psychologically.

Personality issues are things like being selfish, being boisterous, not being a group player, being a demanding character, etc. Education came with discipline when I went to school, and I think that is same for even today's children. So most of these issues are sorted out, and for ages it have been a goal of parents, to educate as well as discipline their children through education (from schools). So I think education helps personality issues, but not personality disorders.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Sushan wrote: August 21st, 2021, 9:38 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:48 am By the way, it seems like the "book of the month" selections are almost never philosophy books.
Seemingly you are dissatisfied with the choice of the books for BOTM forum. These books are chosen out of the suggestions by the members, and also out of the books which are currently read by most readers. And as I see there are many philosophical aspects that have been discussed and can be discussed in these books.

Please be kind enough to name some philosophical books that you prefer and we can try to include them in the future discussions. Thank you
Here are a few suggestions for recent books on a range of topics:

The Ethics of Identity by Kwame Anthony Appiah
The Exchange of Words: Speech, Testimony and Intersubjectivity by Richard Moran
Infinity, Causation and Paradox by Alexander R. Pruss
Philosophical Logic by John Burgess
Scientism: Prospect and Problems, edited by by Jeroen de Ridder, Rik Peels and Rene van Woudenberg
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Sushan wrote: August 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:46 am One thing education doesn't help with is personality issues, which is something constantly demonstrated on boards like this.
Personality issues and personality disorders are two different things. Personality disorders cannot be helped with education, but have to be treated psychologically.

Personality issues are things like being selfish, being boisterous, not being a group player, being a demanding character, etc. Education came with discipline when I went to school, and I think that is same for even today's children. So most of these issues are sorted out, and for ages it have been a goal of parents, to educate as well as discipline their children through education (from schools). So I think education helps personality issues, but not personality disorders.
You wouldn't say that people with personality disorders have personality issues?

Also, you're basically characterizing conditioning re rewards and punishments as "education." I wouldn't call that education.
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 22nd, 2021, 8:09 am
Sushan wrote: August 21st, 2021, 9:38 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:48 am By the way, it seems like the "book of the month" selections are almost never philosophy books.
Seemingly you are dissatisfied with the choice of the books for BOTM forum. These books are chosen out of the suggestions by the members, and also out of the books which are currently read by most readers. And as I see there are many philosophical aspects that have been discussed and can be discussed in these books.

Please be kind enough to name some philosophical books that you prefer and we can try to include them in the future discussions. Thank you
Here are a few suggestions for recent books on a range of topics:

The Ethics of Identity by Kwame Anthony Appiah
The Exchange of Words: Speech, Testimony and Intersubjectivity by Richard Moran
Infinity, Causation and Paradox by Alexander R. Pruss
Philosophical Logic by John Burgess
Scientism: Prospect and Problems, edited by by Jeroen de Ridder, Rik Peels and Rene van Woudenberg
Thank you for the suggestions. I will forward this list to the philosophical book suggestion forum and the site admin will take necessary actions. Thank you once again.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 22nd, 2021, 8:11 am
Sushan wrote: August 21st, 2021, 9:43 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 19th, 2021, 7:46 am One thing education doesn't help with is personality issues, which is something constantly demonstrated on boards like this.
Personality issues and personality disorders are two different things. Personality disorders cannot be helped with education, but have to be treated psychologically.

Personality issues are things like being selfish, being boisterous, not being a group player, being a demanding character, etc. Education came with discipline when I went to school, and I think that is same for even today's children. So most of these issues are sorted out, and for ages it have been a goal of parents, to educate as well as discipline their children through education (from schools). So I think education helps personality issues, but not personality disorders.
You wouldn't say that people with personality disorders have personality issues?

Also, you're basically characterizing conditioning re rewards and punishments as "education." I wouldn't call that education.
People with personality disorders definitely have personality issues. But people with personality issues does not always have personality disorders, and such issues can be corrected by advice, punishment, and rewards.

I strongly believe that disciplining a child should be a part of education. When your child starts schooling most of the time he spends at school. So if he is not disciplined there will you be able to do that in the little time that you meet him in your home. Rewards and punishments is not the only method to discipline a child. A teacher can use any legal and ethical way to do that. But if a teacher simply fill a child with knowledge what will the end result of that child will be?
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Sushan wrote: August 22nd, 2021, 9:37 pm People with personality disorders definitely have personality issues. But people with personality issues does not always have personality disorders, and such issues can be corrected by advice, punishment, and rewards.
Sure. So then you should be careful to not make the cleavage seem as if you'd be saying that "personality issues" somehow excludes "personality disorders." You'd want to say that you believe that personality issues can be taken care of with education, but not when they're the result of personality disorders.
I strongly believe that disciplining a child should be a part of education.
I just wouldn't call that education. I wouldn't say that education is the same thing as attempts to condition. I would say that education is the presentation of and guidance through (believed) factual information in various academic fields. That can include psychological and sociological information such as how others are likely to react to certain personality traits, but I'm of the opinion that the presentation of that information isn't likely to change those personality traits in people who have them. Can conditioning change them? Perhaps, if the conditioning is severe and sustained enough. But I just wouldn't call that education. I'd also consider severe and sustained enough conditioning to itself be indicative of a personality issue (if not disorder).
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

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Terrapin Station wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:54 am
Sushan wrote: August 22nd, 2021, 9:37 pm People with personality disorders definitely have personality issues. But people with personality issues does not always have personality disorders, and such issues can be corrected by advice, punishment, and rewards.
Sure. So then you should be careful to not make the cleavage seem as if you'd be saying that "personality issues" somehow excludes "personality disorders." You'd want to say that you believe that personality issues can be taken care of with education, but not when they're the result of personality disorders.
I strongly believe that disciplining a child should be a part of education.
I just wouldn't call that education. I wouldn't say that education is the same thing as attempts to condition. I would say that education is the presentation of and guidance through (believed) factual information in various academic fields. That can include psychological and sociological information such as how others are likely to react to certain personality traits, but I'm of the opinion that the presentation of that information isn't likely to change those personality traits in people who have them. Can conditioning change them? Perhaps, if the conditioning is severe and sustained enough. But I just wouldn't call that education. I'd also consider severe and sustained enough conditioning to itself be indicative of a personality issue (if not disorder).
First of all, I am sorry if I could not make it clear, but what I have told is exactly the same thing. If one is only having a personality issue then that can be addressed by education. But if it is a personality disorder (including personality issues that have occurred as results of personality disorder/disorders, and then there is no more value in calling it as an 'issue' since we have already diagnosed it as an illness/disorder) then a psycological approach is necessary.

Yes, we can show people (psycologically and sociologically) how others will react towards them in various circumstances, and assume to correct their selves and behave accordingly. But will it be applicable to a large percentage of the society? Will it be applicable to anyone with any IQ level? Most importantly is it applicable to young children?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Is education the solution for any problem?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sushan wrote: August 24th, 2021, 5:02 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 23rd, 2021, 6:54 am
Sushan wrote: August 22nd, 2021, 9:37 pm People with personality disorders definitely have personality issues. But people with personality issues does not always have personality disorders, and such issues can be corrected by advice, punishment, and rewards.
Sure. So then you should be careful to not make the cleavage seem as if you'd be saying that "personality issues" somehow excludes "personality disorders." You'd want to say that you believe that personality issues can be taken care of with education, but not when they're the result of personality disorders.
I strongly believe that disciplining a child should be a part of education.
I just wouldn't call that education. I wouldn't say that education is the same thing as attempts to condition. I would say that education is the presentation of and guidance through (believed) factual information in various academic fields. That can include psychological and sociological information such as how others are likely to react to certain personality traits, but I'm of the opinion that the presentation of that information isn't likely to change those personality traits in people who have them. Can conditioning change them? Perhaps, if the conditioning is severe and sustained enough. But I just wouldn't call that education. I'd also consider severe and sustained enough conditioning to itself be indicative of a personality issue (if not disorder).
First of all, I am sorry if I could not make it clear, but what I have told is exactly the same thing. If one is only having a personality issue then that can be addressed by education. But if it is a personality disorder (including personality issues that have occurred as results of personality disorder/disorders, and then there is no more value in calling it as an 'issue' since we have already diagnosed it as an illness/disorder) then a psycological approach is necessary.

Yes, we can show people (psycologically and sociologically) how others will react towards them in various circumstances, and assume to correct their selves and behave accordingly. But will it be applicable to a large percentage of the society? Will it be applicable to anyone with any IQ level? Most importantly is it applicable to young children?
Just for one example, people on these boards (really any academic subject-oriented board in general) tend to be unduly arrogant, argumentative/stubborn a-holes. There are a variety of reasons for this, with some cases probably sourced in disorders. What would you say are the disciplinary actions we could have taken with these folks as youths to avoid this sort of behavior as adults, and now that they're adults exhibiting these personality issues, do you believe that they're correctable via education or any other way?
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