The November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month is In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All.

Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 11:07 pm This is horrible! I wish I was in a collective, Bun trip! I'm not.
Oh, you may be in several. If you're a member of a jazz band, a football team, a model airplane club, a farmers' coop, or even such organizations as Greenpeace or the NRA or the Kiwanis, you're in a collective. But not by merely being a "member of society."
Ecurb
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Ecurb »

I'm not a member of the NRA, despite my recent hunting expedition. Model airplanes bore me, I lack a green thumb, my musical talents are limited, and my many sports-induced injuries have curtailed my ability to play team sports. I am going to Thanksgiving with my son, his wife, his in-laws, and my two grandchildren. Perhaps a family is a collective, and one for which I will gladly give thanks today.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Good_Egg wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 7:30 pm Whereas some whose understanding is collectivist would say that if fewer dark-skinned people have such skills then asking for them is racist because it disadvantages the racial group that is less likely to possess such skills.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 3:39 pm Your comment is completely illogical because you make several assertions that are unfounded.
I wasn't aware of asserting much here. I assert my opinions, as my opinions, but so what? What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 10:35 pm A group of people who happen, by accident of birth, to occupy a common territory do not constitute a collective.
OK, then just call them a "group", as you have here. The sense I intended is unchanged.
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GE Morton
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: November 24th, 2022, 10:39 am Perhaps a family is a collective, and one for which I will gladly give thanks today.
Yes they are --- well, some of them. Enjoy!
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 24th, 2022, 11:07 am
Good_Egg wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 7:30 pm Whereas some whose understanding is collectivist would say that if fewer dark-skinned people have such skills then asking for them is racist because it disadvantages the racial group that is less likely to possess such skills.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 3:39 pm Your comment is completely illogical because you make several assertions that are unfounded.
I wasn't aware of asserting much here. I assert my opinions, as my opinions, but so what? What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
It an interesting question which you have failed to ask me in respect to my atheism.
But..
I never waste my time with people who are so illogical
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 3:39 pm Your comment is completely illogical because you make several assertions that are unfounded.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 24th, 2022, 11:07 am What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
Sculptor1 wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:48 pm I never waste my time with people who are so illogical
🤣🤣🤣

So your comment was BS; I wasn't quite sure.

🤣🤣🤣
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 24th, 2022, 1:28 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 8:17 am No. If the position requires English language skills, the only racist thing one might do is to assume that a "dark-skinned" applicant does not have these skills. No "collectivist" would say otherwise, I don't think.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 23rd, 2022, 3:39 pm Your comment is completely illogical because you make several assertions that are unfounded.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 24th, 2022, 11:07 am What are the "unfounded assertions" that you have detected, please?
Sculptor1 wrote: November 24th, 2022, 12:48 pm I never waste my time with people who are so illogical

So your comment was BS; I wasn't quite sure.
It would be illogical of you to say that.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Good_Egg »

I think one can argue that a well-functioning democratic society is a group.

Seems to me that the jazz band and the football team are groups because the members communicate and take collective decisions.

The difference between those groups and the whole nation is partly one of scale, and partly that belonging to society is essentially involuntary. Most of the French people have not chosen to be French, they were just born there.

Can there be an involuntary group ? Yes. The residents of a POW camp may have strong group bonds and attempt collective action.

The contrast is with mere sets of people (such as the set of left-handers) who have no members-only communication and do not act collectively.

(The involuntariness of being subject to a government is an argument for libertarianism, but that's another topic).

A race is not a group.
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Good_Egg wrote: November 25th, 2022, 5:17 am I think one can argue that a well-functioning democratic society is a group.

Seems to me that the jazz band and the football team are groups because the members communicate and take collective decisions.

The difference between those groups and the whole nation is partly one of scale, and partly that belonging to society is essentially involuntary. Most of the French people have not chosen to be French, they were just born there.

Can there be an involuntary group ? Yes. The residents of a POW camp may have strong group bonds and attempt collective action.

The contrast is with mere sets of people (such as the set of left-handers) who have no members-only communication and do not act collectively.

(The involuntariness of being subject to a government is an argument for libertarianism, but that's another topic).

A race is not a group.
In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?
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GE Morton
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by GE Morton »

Good_Egg wrote: November 25th, 2022, 5:17 am I think one can argue that a well-functioning democratic society is a group.
A society is a group, democratic, well-functioning or not. The question was whether it was a collective.
GE Morton
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 25th, 2022, 8:51 am
In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?
But they don't --- not the group as a whole. There will be, of course, many subgroups within that group (or any large group) who act collectively, and thus can be called "collectives."

And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by GE Morton »

GE Morton wrote: November 25th, 2022, 12:47 pm
And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
The whole business of taxonomy in biology has been thrown into chaos by the advent of DNA analysis. Previously, species membership was determined by whether a male and female from two distinct populations could interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. If those two populations displayed consistent and distinct morphological characteristics, then they might be dubbed two subspecies of the same species. Now the classifications are drawn according to differences in DNA, which is even more arbitrary. Many species of small cats can successfully interbreed, and will if their ranges overlap. Yet based on DNA differences they're deemed different species. The morphological differences between them are no greater than those found among domestic cats, which are considered all the same species.

The DNA of every individual of a species differs from that of all other individuals (identical twins excepted). How much difference must there be to justify a species distinction? How much to justify subspecies distinctions?

Classifying organisms into population groups is descriptively useful, but it shouldn't be an excuse to ignore the many individual differences among members of those groups.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: November 25th, 2022, 12:01 pm A society is a group, democratic, well-functioning or not. The question was whether it was a collective.
Even Merriam-Webster, which I believe to be an American dictionary, lists several meanings, only the second of which is the one you always refer to:
Merriam-Webster wrote: Collective noun
1: a collective body : group E.g. "a social collective".
2: a cooperative unit or organization. Specifically: collective farm
3: a helicopter control system governing lift
I must admit that the helicopter-related meaning is a new one on me! 😃
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 25th, 2022, 8:51 am In general, I agree. But what if brown-skinned people — I won't say "race", as the very existence of 'race' is a myth — employ "members-only communication" and act collectively? They're a group then, aren't they?
GE Morton wrote: November 25th, 2022, 12:47 pm And you're echoing "progressive" nonsense by claiming race is a "myth." That term is a useful one for describing three broad subpopulations of humans who share "family resemblances" and whose recent evolution occurred in widely separated portions of the planet. It is as valid, and as useful, as distinguishing breeds of dogs, or varieties of roses.
Wikipedia wrote: Race acquired its modern meaning in the field of physical anthropology through scientific racism starting in the 19th century. With the rise of modern genetics, the concept of distinct human races in a biological sense has become obsolete. In 2019, the American Association of Biological Anthropologists stated: "The belief in 'races' as natural aspects of human biology, and the structures of inequality (racism) that emerge from such beliefs, are among the most damaging elements in the human experience both today and in the past."
Quoted text taken from here. I am not an expert in 'racial' genetics, but I am happy to accept what those who have studied the subject believe. Aren't you?
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