Will racism ever be over?

Use this forum to discuss the August 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream by Dr Frank L Douglas
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 12th, 2021, 4:01 am
LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 3:46 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:02 pm

While technically correct many would describe emphasis on marginal examples of race preference such as the Jewish Prize for Literature while there is institutional racism as a prime example of what-aboutism.
No.
The Jewish Prize for Literature is institutional racism. It is a prize that singles out people because of their race. That means the discriminate against non jews. This is a no brainer.
Richard Feynman rejected his "Jewish Science Prize" because he said there is no such thing as Jewish science.
That's a man I can admire.
What are you saying "No" to? I acknowledged you were correct. It's just that literature awards are not a big deal relatively speaking.
And the Prize for Jewish Science as rejected by Feynman. And the NAACP . Whilst I can see the importance and good work of the NAACP, its very existence reinforces institutional racism.
Such things combined reify the concept of race as valid.
This is a big deal.
How would the world react if there was such a thing as the Caucasian Prize for Science, or the White Policemans Ball? What about the Science Prize for Gentiles?
How are they different?
Racism exists and it is true that this negatively impacts upon black neighbourhoods, for school provision, policing and much else. But kids of all colours can get trapped in poverty. Organisations wanting to help need to be colour blind.
Uummm... there is a Caucasian prize for science, it's called the Nobel prize. Just as there is a white prize for movie making, called the Academy awards.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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mystery wrote: August 13th, 2021, 12:20 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 12th, 2021, 4:04 am
mystery wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:06 am

Life is not like the Olympics. But maybe you should have spent more time watching the cycling Maddison, or the relay races in swimming and running?
by coincidence, I know something about swimming. 25 sec 50 meter... when we split to create relay team fastest looks for second fastest and so on. If no arbitrator is involved the team of the 4 fastest will dominate. For training we ARTIFICIALLY split up the top few. it is still winner take all and it is still one team that is the best. it works just the same. If you focus the scope out further and look at the entire team it still works the same as single or many. As you focus on it again the pattern continues and eventually it is one. the only difference is in the magnification level plus, or minus.
Not really relevant. You can push an anlogy too far. Lets face it all those swinners can do other things, and so too can everybody else. But society is about joint enterprise. not about the individual no matter how much your American Ideology tries to tell you that. The cult of the individual is the cult of the psychopath.
ok, I agree that any analogy can be beaten into the ground. I followed the one you suggested as I believe it is like many things have more to them than on the surface.

So we have individualism and collectivism. Is your opinion that those that favor individualism are a psychopath? That's an extreme position for sure.
Not really.
Trump the supreme commander is definitley of that ilk and CEOs predict way higher than average in the psychopathy scale.
It's easy to sort out by country if the overall is individualism vs collectivism.
All countries are a bit of both. America makes individualism into a national fetish. It's the best excuse they have to push and maintain poverty and inequality.

Do you believe those groups of ppl that follow more the culture of individualism are psychopathic such as the USA and perhaps China as collectivism is not; if yes that would for sure be some sort of ISM.
Psychopaths thrive in the cult of the individual for sure. But non psychopaths can beleive any ideology, psychos can only understand collectivism intellectually - as they cannot feel it.

For example, east and west Germany in the past if that is a valid example of individualism vs collectivism. I pick that one as it's all the same race I believe.
THis is not about racial determinism.

Tell me more, what do you think about it?
The Olympics is massively co-oparative, despite being all about competition. Did you see how the skateboarding girls congratulated each other?
CO-operation does more and more effectively than individualism. No man is an island.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.

Discrimination is not whooly genetic. It is mostly cultural. You have been brought uo with negative images of "young black males" every night on TV shooting, looting, and robbing. The real criminals wear smart suits and steal billions, are usually white, and they own the TV channel so you see less abou them though they do more harm.
Racism is self fulfilling, one level of prejudice leads to another- YBM have fewer job opportunities because of negative propoganda and this means that their options are fewer, crime becomes a good option, and the circle closes. holding views as you do, that discrimination is inevitable is also self fulfilling.

I do not understand what this means, or what you are talking about.

Ditto.
You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
So where are you from?
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:45 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm

You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
So where are you from?
The Pacific Northwest, you?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:10 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:45 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm

I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
So where are you from?
The Pacific Northwest, you?
Oddly enough that is where I originated; in Spokane. But that was a long time ago.
My mum returned to England when I was just getting out of nappies, dragging my American father with her, and sailed on the Queen Mary from New York.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 14th, 2021, 4:38 am
LuckyR wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:10 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:45 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm

Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
So where are you from?
The Pacific Northwest, you?
Oddly enough that is where I originated; in Spokane. But that was a long time ago.
My mum returned to England when I was just getting out of nappies, dragging my American father with her, and sailed on the Queen Mary from New York.
Have you been back on the Queen Mary? We had our high school prom there in the 70s.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 15th, 2021, 2:00 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 14th, 2021, 4:38 am
LuckyR wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:10 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 13th, 2021, 5:45 am
So where are you from?
The Pacific Northwest, you?
Oddly enough that is where I originated; in Spokane. But that was a long time ago.
My mum returned to England when I was just getting out of nappies, dragging my American father with her, and sailed on the Queen Mary from New York.
Have you been back on the Queen Mary? We had our high school prom there in the 70s.
Yes, I was very young, but we sailed from NY to England because my Mum had several trunks and did not like to fly.
My lasting memory is my brother and I left alone in the cabin throwing all my Mum's make-up down the sick and getting covered in lipstick and eye shadow. I can only remember the swills of colour as it all went down the plug hole and getting scolded.
I assume ti was in dry dock in CA by the time you were having your prom?
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2021, 7:58 am
LuckyR wrote: August 15th, 2021, 2:00 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 14th, 2021, 4:38 am
LuckyR wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:10 am

The Pacific Northwest, you?
Oddly enough that is where I originated; in Spokane. But that was a long time ago.
My mum returned to England when I was just getting out of nappies, dragging my American father with her, and sailed on the Queen Mary from New York.
Have you been back on the Queen Mary? We had our high school prom there in the 70s.
Yes, I was very young, but we sailed from NY to England because my Mum had several trunks and did not like to fly.
My lasting memory is my brother and I left alone in the cabin throwing all my Mum's make-up down the sick and getting covered in lipstick and eye shadow. I can only remember the swills of colour as it all went down the plug hole and getting scolded.
I assume ti was in dry dock in CA by the time you were having your prom?
She arrived in California in 71, opened in 72, we had our prom in 79.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 16th, 2021, 2:59 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2021, 7:58 am
LuckyR wrote: August 15th, 2021, 2:00 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 14th, 2021, 4:38 am

Oddly enough that is where I originated; in Spokane. But that was a long time ago.
My mum returned to England when I was just getting out of nappies, dragging my American father with her, and sailed on the Queen Mary from New York.
Have you been back on the Queen Mary? We had our high school prom there in the 70s.
Yes, I was very young, but we sailed from NY to England because my Mum had several trunks and did not like to fly.
My lasting memory is my brother and I left alone in the cabin throwing all my Mum's make-up down the sick and getting covered in lipstick and eye shadow. I can only remember the swills of colour as it all went down the plug hole and getting scolded.
I assume ti was in dry dock in CA by the time you were having your prom?
She arrived in California in 71, opened in 72, we had our prom in 79.
My Dad and I were in Long Beach in 1981 just long enough to see her. "Do ya wanna get closer?"
"Na! Some other time".
WHen you are 21 you think you have all the time in the world.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Tegularius wrote: August 5th, 2021, 10:52 pm Oh yes! When we're all the same colour.
Well, I am not so sure about that. Colour is a denominator for racism but not the denominator. It is true that people mainly discriminate others or get divided into groups depending on their skin colour.

The Merriam Webster Dictionary says,
Racism is a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
So it goes far from just the skin colour and the so called genetic differences have been registered in human minds for decades. To fight racism all these has to be reversed, and if possible along with different skin colours.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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LuckyR wrote: August 6th, 2021, 1:40 am
Sushan wrote: August 5th, 2021, 8:10 pm This topic is about the August 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream by Dr Frank L Douglas

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
          -Dr. Martin Luther King-
(Location 259 of Kindle version)

So in the book, when Frank gets to the US, he experiences instances of racial discrimination that he hadn't in Guyana. Once he was even denied of a prestigious job not because he was not suitable, but because he was black.

The author met with these issues few decades back, but still we see remnants of racism throughout the world. Will racism ever be over? If not, why?
Tribalism is intrinsic to the human understanding of self. The tribes in the future may move away from what we call race, but don't be fooled, it will just be replaced by something else besides race.
Yes. People form or join to various groups (or tribes) depending on various denominators. Earlier days this was mainly seen depending in the skin ccolour. But they did not stop at there and went towards proving that it is not merely the skin cocolour but a lack of physical and mental power in a particular (the Blacks) group. Triabalism was there. But more than that we see people trying to be superior to others using these concepts. And I think that is the driving force to maintain the concept of racism.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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On the one hand, racism IS over, because race theory is utterly discredited. The whole concept of race as a category within biology is literally skin deep at best. But really race is not the issue, is it?

No, racism will never be over, because it isn't about race. Racism is really about in-groups and out-groups, and that is about power and narcissism. The notion of discriminating against people who are in your out-group is an old human sport, and the true foundation of most human conflict. It isn't going to end any time soon, and likely never will, unless we as a species are radically genetically altered somehow, and that may entail our extinction, as in-group/out-group thinking is part of how humans reason about dealing with external aggression, and to remove that is to leave us mentally disarmed in an indifferent cosmos, likely sprinkled with plenty of hostile bits.

Racism has an entirely rational basis in evolution. Strangers are potentially dangerous. They may be hostile, and even if they aren't they potentially carry lethal diseases that you have no immunity to. To this effect, human babies are racist, as they fear people who don't look like their parents, especially people who look very different to their parents such as people with different skin color.

This is not an endorsement of racism, as I would also point out that most people grow out of this infantile response as they learn to increasingly judge people on their merits.

But what if someone has precious few merits? What if through repeated exposure and experience you come to despise the culture and values of a particular ethnic group? I know there is the "not every Scotsman" argument, but on the flip side, stereotypes exist for a reason, and some people do their best to live up to their stereotype and all its questionable manifestations without much sense of irony about what they are choosing to do.

What if, to paraphrase MLK you actively choose to judge someone by the content of their character, and they come up wanting? Perhaps badly so? What if their lack of character proves symptomatic of the community in which they live?

Well, I would definitely suggest that one examine one's own beliefs and attitudes for hypocrisy, as all-too-often people arch up about behavior in others that they too are guilty of, and to paraphrase Nietsche, we are too often the monsters we fight against. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that there aren't bad communities out there for you to bump into.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Tegularius »

Sushan wrote: October 21st, 2021, 10:13 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 5th, 2021, 10:52 pm Oh yes! When we're all the same colour.
Well, I am not so sure about that. Colour is a denominator for racism but not the denominator. It is true that people mainly discriminate others or get divided into groups depending on their skin colour.

The Merriam Webster Dictionary says,
Racism is a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
So it goes far from just the skin colour and the so called genetic differences have been registered in human minds for decades. To fight racism all these has to be reversed, and if possible along with different skin colours.
Forgive! I was just being sarcastic! But it is true. If we were ALL the same skin color all prejudice would be neutralized. Globalization no-longer asserts the old view of white superiority. It was the same with women. Once they gained all the rights and privileges of males they proved without question male superiority to be a myth.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sushan »

Nick_A wrote: August 6th, 2021, 11:05 am
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
-Dr. Martin Luther King-
All statues of MLK must be torn down. The idea is too old fashioned and gets in the way of the woke ponderings of modern academics seeking improvements and cash. Character has become archaic

The modern woke academics after a week of intense ponderings and six bottles of good scotch finally resolved that the solution to racism requires adopting Critical Race Theory and the struggle between people of color and people of non color. Realizing that the concept of people of non color was too broad, these experts decided to limit people of non color to long nosed Armenian and Russian people of which I am one.

The idea then is to make them the currently fashionable people responsible for all that happened to people of color. Character has nothing to do with it. The only question is if you are a person of color or non color. If you are a person of non color my suggestion is get a gun for protection against those needing scapegoats. Your nose will give you away and could become a target.
I agree that several parts in the world are still maintaining the racial beliefs, behaviours, and laws which will put the minority (it can be the coloured or the non-coloured) in disadvantage or even in danger. But hasn't the world come a long way from that barbaric mindset? There have been many attempts to overcome racism, have none of them been successful? I have not experienced much of racism since my country's cultural and racial diversity is quite less. But I believe the world is a better place now compared to the ancient times.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sushan »

Gertie wrote: August 6th, 2021, 10:54 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 6th, 2021, 1:40 am
Sushan wrote: August 5th, 2021, 8:10 pm This topic is about the August 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream by Dr Frank L Douglas

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
          -Dr. Martin Luther King-
(Location 259 of Kindle version)

So in the book, when Frank gets to the US, he experiences instances of racial discrimination that he hadn't in Guyana. Once he was even denied of a prestigious job not because he was not suitable, but because he was black.

The author met with these issues few decades back, but still we see remnants of racism throughout the world. Will racism ever be over? If not, why?
Tribalism is intrinsic to the human understanding of self. The tribes in the future may move away from what we call race, but don't be fooled, it will just be replaced by something else besides race.
Yes I think you're right we have these evolved tribal pre-dispositions which can be triggered in various ways. My hope is that if we come to understand them better, we might be able to avoid the worst effects...
Yes, it has been shown that humans are tend to express their power when they feel like they have a superior power over other people. This psychological fact has been shown as the reason for violence towards war prisoners which were commenced by usually innocent soldiers (I am not saying they had no control over what they did, and it was wrong despite the reason). This trend is found in multi cultural societies where there are obvious majority and minority groups. So the solution for racism has to be found within individuals by learning how to treat everyone equally.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021