Will racism ever be over?

Use this forum to discuss the August 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream by Dr Frank L Douglas
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mystery
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by mystery »

LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 2:52 am
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 11:51 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.

Discrimination is not whooly genetic. It is mostly cultural. You have been brought uo with negative images of "young black males" every night on TV shooting, looting, and robbing. The real criminals wear smart suits and steal billions, are usually white, and they own the TV channel so you see less abou them though they do more harm.
Racism is self fulfilling, one level of prejudice leads to another- YBM have fewer job opportunities because of negative propoganda and this means that their options are fewer, crime becomes a good option, and the circle closes. holding views as you do, that discrimination is inevitable is also self fulfilling.

I do not understand what this means, or what you are talking about.

Ditto.
You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
Everyone wants to be better than average = competition.

I don't see how you tell competition is untrue and then define competition as the issue.
I apologize for being difficult to understand. I do acknowledge that competition exists. However competition exists for the excellent and the incompetent. As it happens the excellent are... well, excellent. They're happy being excellent, in fact they try to be thought of as even more excellent by being magnanimous towards the downtrodden.

The incompetent OTOH want to be excellent, yet they aren't. For some it's not a big deal, but for many they feel an inferiority complex about it and soothe their fragile egos by declaring that they at least superior to these bunch of "fill in the blank with a different race".

It's not the desire to be great, it's the inability to handle that you aren't great.
I can see your point as you tell; and agree.

it's always fun to see one of the downtrodden rise and then become excellent instead of incompetent.

Often even the excellent are accused of this ISM sin, only because they are of the same race as the incompetent. At the same time often the risen downtrodden will also be grouped in with the other excellent and accused even if they are the same race as the accuser. it's crazy sometimes.

I value men for the codes of life that they demonstrate as to what they do. Incompetence exists in every race, it's a human thing.

More than once I have been accused of race or gender ism. When I was being fair and objective and not giving any slack to the complainer. If they want first place prize must win or be the best at whatever... No handicap points were given. By doing that others usually will also accept the decisions.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:41 am the competition will never be over. it is built into our DNA as a species, all races.
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

multiple ways exist to win the competition, such as direct confrontation or subterfuge if/when direct confrontation fails or is sure to fail then alternative methods are used.
And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

it is a zero-sum world.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.

discrimination is built into our DNA as well, all races. we treat the wealthy better than poor, they get better food and better items. we treat the pretty better than the ugly. we treat the educated better than the ignorant. human life is competition from birth till death.
Discrimination is not whooly genetic. It is mostly cultural. You have been brought uo with negative images of "young black males" every night on TV shooting, looting, and robbing. The real criminals wear smart suits and steal billions, are usually white, and they own the TV channel so you see less abou them though they do more harm.
Racism is self fulfilling, one level of prejudice leads to another- YBM have fewer job opportunities because of negative propoganda and this means that their options are fewer, crime becomes a good option, and the circle closes. holding views as you do, that discrimination is inevitable is also self fulfilling.

I see often firsthand how a race of ppl strives to copy another race. so often when the copy is complete, they hate it and go back to the old ways because the cost of the new in multiple ways is more than expected. not about wrong and write, it is about being authentic.
I do not understand what this means, or what you are talking about.

one race will tell that others treat them bad, while at the same time treating a third race bad themselves. no one is immune to this, it is part of what we are. doesn't make it good, but it is true.
Ditto.
You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 11:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:41 am the competition will never be over. it is built into our DNA as a species, all races.
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

multiple ways exist to win the competition, such as direct confrontation or subterfuge if/when direct confrontation fails or is sure to fail then alternative methods are used.
And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

it is a zero-sum world.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.
zero-sum has a specific meaning. we have a finite of stuff. stuff can be moved around but not really created. any gain is at the cost of losing some other place. think, equivalent exchange. it may take more than a moment, to realize where the loss is that equals the gain.
It's an old and out-of-date myth called the "theory of the limited good" and its false.
You co-operate and 3 people can do more than 3 individuals.
Take three specialists; and you can transform a pile of wood into three houses. One man alone can only make the floor, another the walls and another the roof.
It never was a zero sum world. We co-operate and end up with progress.

in the west we try to break this all the time, for example, every child is a winner complete with a blue ribbon. truth is only one is the winner. when we negotiate anything we are trying to get more and at the cost of the opponent to get less. its a general idea, you likely can sort out some exceptions but in general, it works like that, zero-sum. I use the term often because it best describes the reality of competition. In this case human competition. working together is only when it is in the best interest or is believed to be in the best interest of the actor.
No. There is never only one winner. THis is not "Highlander", the world is not like that. This is a complete no-brainer.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on August 10th, 2021, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:41 am the competition will never be over. it is built into our DNA as a species, all races.
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

multiple ways exist to win the competition, such as direct confrontation or subterfuge if/when direct confrontation fails or is sure to fail then alternative methods are used.
And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

it is a zero-sum world.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.

discrimination is built into our DNA as well, all races. we treat the wealthy better than poor, they get better food and better items. we treat the pretty better than the ugly. we treat the educated better than the ignorant. human life is competition from birth till death.
Discrimination is not whooly genetic. It is mostly cultural. You have been brought uo with negative images of "young black males" every night on TV shooting, looting, and robbing. The real criminals wear smart suits and steal billions, are usually white, and they own the TV channel so you see less abou them though they do more harm.
Racism is self fulfilling, one level of prejudice leads to another- YBM have fewer job opportunities because of negative propoganda and this means that their options are fewer, crime becomes a good option, and the circle closes. holding views as you do, that discrimination is inevitable is also self fulfilling.

I see often firsthand how a race of ppl strives to copy another race. so often when the copy is complete, they hate it and go back to the old ways because the cost of the new in multiple ways is more than expected. not about wrong and write, it is about being authentic.
I do not understand what this means, or what you are talking about.

one race will tell that others treat them bad, while at the same time treating a third race bad themselves. no one is immune to this, it is part of what we are. doesn't make it good, but it is true.
Ditto.
You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
"As usual... it depends."
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mystery
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by mystery »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:30 pm
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 11:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:41 am the competition will never be over. it is built into our DNA as a species, all races.
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

multiple ways exist to win the competition, such as direct confrontation or subterfuge if/when direct confrontation fails or is sure to fail then alternative methods are used.
And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

it is a zero-sum world.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.
zero-sum has a specific meaning. we have a finite of stuff. stuff can be moved around but not really created. any gain is at the cost of losing some other place. think, equivalent exchange. it may take more than a moment, to realize where the loss is that equals the gain.
It's an old and out-of-date myth called the "theory of the limited good" and its false.
You co-operate and 3 people can do more than 3 individuals.
Take three specialists; and you can transform a pile of wood into three houses. One man alone can only make the floor, another the walls and another the roof.
It never was a zero sum world. We co-operate and end up with progress.

in the west we try to break this all the time, for example, every child is a winner complete with a blue ribbon. truth is only one is the winner. when we negotiate anything we are trying to get more and at the cost of the opponent to get less. its a general idea, you likely can sort out some exceptions but in general, it works like that, zero-sum. I use the term often because it best describes the reality of competition. In this case human competition. working together is only when it is in the best interest or is believed to be in the best interest of the actor.
No. There is never only one winner. THis is not "Highlander", the world is not like that. This is a complete no-brainer.
During the Olympic games, one gold medal per event. It is like highlander. One person is the most wealthy at any time. One religion has the most follower at any one time. This list can go on and on. When another person takes the first place, the previous one is no longer first.

I agree that optimizations can be done to improve any position. By combining Hydrogen and Oxygen we can get water. we need that. But we have used H2O then. The properties of H2O are different than H and O, in this, I agree. But we did not increase the overall pool of stuff.. we just optimized for what we need.

The level of complication and obstruction in transactions is huge... but it is still zero-sum. Optimizing resources do not increase resources.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by fionaimmodest »

I believe it is better to look at the complexity of discrimination. Then focusing mainly on one aspect of discrimination. Which seems to happen a lot. If we as a people would look at the discriminant ways of us humans. Starting with bias blind spot. I believe it would be good. It will be seen as part of a whole. And I agree with most of that are said in this thread. We as people take suggestions of getting to know other people than we are used to. Life can change our view of people who have some differences from us. I believe we will never eliminate discrimination as a whole. I do believe we can become aware when it naturally manifests itself in our conscious minds. And then we have a chance not to act upon it. We are very tribal in our nature. This will get in the way of equality for all. It has been and I believe it will always be about the distribution of power.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.

Discrimination is not whooly genetic. It is mostly cultural. You have been brought uo with negative images of "young black males" every night on TV shooting, looting, and robbing. The real criminals wear smart suits and steal billions, are usually white, and they own the TV channel so you see less abou them though they do more harm.
Racism is self fulfilling, one level of prejudice leads to another- YBM have fewer job opportunities because of negative propoganda and this means that their options are fewer, crime becomes a good option, and the circle closes. holding views as you do, that discrimination is inevitable is also self fulfilling.

I do not understand what this means, or what you are talking about.

Ditto.
You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
For my money racism is more than two types. But you can characterise it as positive and negative. Black power is positive racism, but so is white supremacy. They can both be seen as negative. It depends on who you are and how you see things.
You can also see it as covert and overt, with differeng degrees. Also conscious and unconscious.

Patriotism is racism. "The Jewish Prize for Literature" is racism. NAACP is racism.
Any institutional body that favour one race over another can be seen as positive, but this simple re-inforces that same thought that races are separate and valid ways to categorise humanity.
I do not see any way out of this conundrum in the near future unless we fully encourage mixed race marriages for many generations to come.
I know three couples who did this; two of the families, in the UK, are still together after decades and all have children that have just gone through university. They are bright and well adjusted. London is a pretty good melting pot.
The other couple in the US found that the black father had few choices in life and ended uo with a long sentence for dealing crack, after himself becoming addicted. Mum and the kids moved back to the UK.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

mystery wrote: August 10th, 2021, 10:58 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:30 pm
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 11:48 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 9th, 2021, 4:50 am
And so is co-operation, and altruism.

And multiple ways exist to integrate and accomodate such as kindness and generosity.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean buy this, but it is an overused phrase.
I think I know what it means, and it is clear that it is not a zero sum world at all. If it was we'd all still be living in the trees. Co-operation is additive. It's a plus sum world, and that is how humans managed to leave Africa and colonise the entire globe.
zero-sum has a specific meaning. we have a finite of stuff. stuff can be moved around but not really created. any gain is at the cost of losing some other place. think, equivalent exchange. it may take more than a moment, to realize where the loss is that equals the gain.
It's an old and out-of-date myth called the "theory of the limited good" and its false.
You co-operate and 3 people can do more than 3 individuals.
Take three specialists; and you can transform a pile of wood into three houses. One man alone can only make the floor, another the walls and another the roof.
It never was a zero sum world. We co-operate and end up with progress.

in the west we try to break this all the time, for example, every child is a winner complete with a blue ribbon. truth is only one is the winner. when we negotiate anything we are trying to get more and at the cost of the opponent to get less. its a general idea, you likely can sort out some exceptions but in general, it works like that, zero-sum. I use the term often because it best describes the reality of competition. In this case human competition. working together is only when it is in the best interest or is believed to be in the best interest of the actor.
No. There is never only one winner. THis is not "Highlander", the world is not like that. This is a complete no-brainer.
During the Olympic games, one gold medal per event. It is like highlander. One person is the most wealthy at any time. One religion has the most follower at any one time. This list can go on and on. When another person takes the first place, the previous one is no longer first.
Life is not like the Olympics. But maybe you should have spent more time watching the cycling Maddison, or the relay reaces in swimming and running?
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:05 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:48 pm

You are right about cooperation and altruism. Problem is, it is untrue that racism stems from competition (per se). Rather racism stems from insecurity/inferiority. Everyone wants to be better than average. Problem is only 50% are. For the other 50%, their options are improving themselves or bring others down. Not everyone can bring themselves up.
I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
For my money racism is more than two types. But you can characterise it as positive and negative. Black power is positive racism, but so is white supremacy. They can both be seen as negative. It depends on who you are and how you see things.
You can also see it as covert and overt, with differeng degrees. Also conscious and unconscious.

Patriotism is racism. "The Jewish Prize for Literature" is racism. NAACP is racism.
Any institutional body that favour one race over another can be seen as positive, but this simple re-inforces that same thought that races are separate and valid ways to categorise humanity.
I do not see any way out of this conundrum in the near future unless we fully encourage mixed race marriages for many generations to come.
I know three couples who did this; two of the families, in the UK, are still together after decades and all have children that have just gone through university. They are bright and well adjusted. London is a pretty good melting pot.
The other couple in the US found that the black father had few choices in life and ended uo with a long sentence for dealing crack, after himself becoming addicted. Mum and the kids moved back to the UK.
While technically correct many would describe emphasis on marginal examples of race preference such as the Jewish Prize for Literature while there is institutional racism as a prime example of what-aboutism.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:05 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:25 pm

I disagree entirely.
Racism is exactly about co-operation. It's root is tribalism, petty revalry ensure that members of each tribe work for the benefit of the tribe and not outsiders.
I'm not recommending it. But we are all tribalist in some degree and we all have "others" outside the group. FOr some of us the idea that the whole human race is our tribe is a solution to racism, but whilst this is not a universally held viewpoint, it cannot work easily.
I'm not sure whey you think "everyone" wants to be better than average. When you use a word liek "all" or everyone", a sinlge example refutes the claim.
Neither racism nor co-operation is not about "bringing up" or being "better". Some are better at one thing whilst being bad at others, and other people are the opposite. It's not linear.
Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
For my money racism is more than two types. But you can characterise it as positive and negative. Black power is positive racism, but so is white supremacy. They can both be seen as negative. It depends on who you are and how you see things.
You can also see it as covert and overt, with differeng degrees. Also conscious and unconscious.

Patriotism is racism. "The Jewish Prize for Literature" is racism. NAACP is racism.
Any institutional body that favour one race over another can be seen as positive, but this simple re-inforces that same thought that races are separate and valid ways to categorise humanity.
I do not see any way out of this conundrum in the near future unless we fully encourage mixed race marriages for many generations to come.
I know three couples who did this; two of the families, in the UK, are still together after decades and all have children that have just gone through university. They are bright and well adjusted. London is a pretty good melting pot.
The other couple in the US found that the black father had few choices in life and ended uo with a long sentence for dealing crack, after himself becoming addicted. Mum and the kids moved back to the UK.
While technically correct many would describe emphasis on marginal examples of race preference such as the Jewish Prize for Literature while there is institutional racism as a prime example of what-aboutism.
No.
The Jewish Prize for Literature is institutional racism. It is a prize that singles out people because of their race. That means the discriminate against non jews. This is a no brainer.
Richard Feynman rejected his "Jewish Science Prize" because he said there is no such thing as Jewish science.
That's a man I can admire.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 3:46 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:05 am
LuckyR wrote: August 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm

Part of the problem with discussing racism is that the two types of racism have two different causes. You correctly describe the cause of institutional racism as tribalism (as I did in the second post on this thread).

In the post you quoted above, I was addressing individual racism (involving individuals, not groups). I was motivated to do so because I happen to reside where institutional racism is covert (not absent, as some suppose). Whereas individuals (especially online) engage in overt racism all day, every day.
For my money racism is more than two types. But you can characterise it as positive and negative. Black power is positive racism, but so is white supremacy. They can both be seen as negative. It depends on who you are and how you see things.
You can also see it as covert and overt, with differeng degrees. Also conscious and unconscious.

Patriotism is racism. "The Jewish Prize for Literature" is racism. NAACP is racism.
Any institutional body that favour one race over another can be seen as positive, but this simple re-inforces that same thought that races are separate and valid ways to categorise humanity.
I do not see any way out of this conundrum in the near future unless we fully encourage mixed race marriages for many generations to come.
I know three couples who did this; two of the families, in the UK, are still together after decades and all have children that have just gone through university. They are bright and well adjusted. London is a pretty good melting pot.
The other couple in the US found that the black father had few choices in life and ended uo with a long sentence for dealing crack, after himself becoming addicted. Mum and the kids moved back to the UK.
While technically correct many would describe emphasis on marginal examples of race preference such as the Jewish Prize for Literature while there is institutional racism as a prime example of what-aboutism.
No.
The Jewish Prize for Literature is institutional racism. It is a prize that singles out people because of their race. That means the discriminate against non jews. This is a no brainer.
Richard Feynman rejected his "Jewish Science Prize" because he said there is no such thing as Jewish science.
That's a man I can admire.
What are you saying "No" to? I acknowledged you were correct. It's just that literature awards are not a big deal relatively speaking.
"As usual... it depends."
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mystery
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by mystery »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:06 am
mystery wrote: August 10th, 2021, 10:58 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:30 pm
mystery wrote: August 9th, 2021, 11:48 pm
zero-sum has a specific meaning. we have a finite of stuff. stuff can be moved around but not really created. any gain is at the cost of losing some other place. think, equivalent exchange. it may take more than a moment, to realize where the loss is that equals the gain.
It's an old and out-of-date myth called the "theory of the limited good" and its false.
You co-operate and 3 people can do more than 3 individuals.
Take three specialists; and you can transform a pile of wood into three houses. One man alone can only make the floor, another the walls and another the roof.
It never was a zero sum world. We co-operate and end up with progress.

in the west we try to break this all the time, for example, every child is a winner complete with a blue ribbon. truth is only one is the winner. when we negotiate anything we are trying to get more and at the cost of the opponent to get less. its a general idea, you likely can sort out some exceptions but in general, it works like that, zero-sum. I use the term often because it best describes the reality of competition. In this case human competition. working together is only when it is in the best interest or is believed to be in the best interest of the actor.
No. There is never only one winner. THis is not "Highlander", the world is not like that. This is a complete no-brainer.
During the Olympic games, one gold medal per event. It is like highlander. One person is the most wealthy at any time. One religion has the most follower at any one time. This list can go on and on. When another person takes the first place, the previous one is no longer first.
Life is not like the Olympics. But maybe you should have spent more time watching the cycling Maddison, or the relay races in swimming and running?
by coincidence, I know something about swimming. 25 sec 50 meter... when we split to create relay team fastest looks for second fastest and so on. If no arbitrator is involved the team of the 4 fastest will dominate. For training we ARTIFICIALLY split up the top few. it is still winner take all and it is still one team that is the best. it works just the same. If you focus the scope out further and look at the entire team it still works the same as single or many. As you focus on it again the pattern continues and eventually it is one. the only difference is in the magnification level plus, or minus.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 3:46 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:05 am

For my money racism is more than two types. But you can characterise it as positive and negative. Black power is positive racism, but so is white supremacy. They can both be seen as negative. It depends on who you are and how you see things.
You can also see it as covert and overt, with differeng degrees. Also conscious and unconscious.

Patriotism is racism. "The Jewish Prize for Literature" is racism. NAACP is racism.
Any institutional body that favour one race over another can be seen as positive, but this simple re-inforces that same thought that races are separate and valid ways to categorise humanity.
I do not see any way out of this conundrum in the near future unless we fully encourage mixed race marriages for many generations to come.
I know three couples who did this; two of the families, in the UK, are still together after decades and all have children that have just gone through university. They are bright and well adjusted. London is a pretty good melting pot.
The other couple in the US found that the black father had few choices in life and ended uo with a long sentence for dealing crack, after himself becoming addicted. Mum and the kids moved back to the UK.
While technically correct many would describe emphasis on marginal examples of race preference such as the Jewish Prize for Literature while there is institutional racism as a prime example of what-aboutism.
No.
The Jewish Prize for Literature is institutional racism. It is a prize that singles out people because of their race. That means the discriminate against non jews. This is a no brainer.
Richard Feynman rejected his "Jewish Science Prize" because he said there is no such thing as Jewish science.
That's a man I can admire.
What are you saying "No" to? I acknowledged you were correct. It's just that literature awards are not a big deal relatively speaking.
And the Prize for Jewish Science as rejected by Feynman. And the NAACP . Whilst I can see the importance and good work of the NAACP, its very existence reinforces institutional racism.
Such things combined reify the concept of race as valid.
This is a big deal.
How would the world react if there was such a thing as the Caucasian Prize for Science, or the White Policemans Ball? What about the Science Prize for Gentiles?
How are they different?
Racism exists and it is true that this negatively impacts upon black neighbourhoods, for school provision, policing and much else. But kids of all colours can get trapped in poverty. Organisations wanting to help need to be colour blind.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

mystery wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:06 am
mystery wrote: August 10th, 2021, 10:58 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 10th, 2021, 4:30 pm
It's an old and out-of-date myth called the "theory of the limited good" and its false.
You co-operate and 3 people can do more than 3 individuals.
Take three specialists; and you can transform a pile of wood into three houses. One man alone can only make the floor, another the walls and another the roof.
It never was a zero sum world. We co-operate and end up with progress.

No. There is never only one winner. THis is not "Highlander", the world is not like that. This is a complete no-brainer.
During the Olympic games, one gold medal per event. It is like highlander. One person is the most wealthy at any time. One religion has the most follower at any one time. This list can go on and on. When another person takes the first place, the previous one is no longer first.
Life is not like the Olympics. But maybe you should have spent more time watching the cycling Maddison, or the relay races in swimming and running?
by coincidence, I know something about swimming. 25 sec 50 meter... when we split to create relay team fastest looks for second fastest and so on. If no arbitrator is involved the team of the 4 fastest will dominate. For training we ARTIFICIALLY split up the top few. it is still winner take all and it is still one team that is the best. it works just the same. If you focus the scope out further and look at the entire team it still works the same as single or many. As you focus on it again the pattern continues and eventually it is one. the only difference is in the magnification level plus, or minus.
Not really relevant. You can push an anlogy too far. Lets face it all those swinners can do other things, and so too can everybody else. But society is about joint enterprise. not about the individual no matter how much your American Ideology tries to tell you that. The cult of the individual is the cult of the psychopath.
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mystery
Posts: 380
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
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Location: earth

Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by mystery »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 12th, 2021, 4:04 am
mystery wrote: August 11th, 2021, 9:39 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 7:06 am
mystery wrote: August 10th, 2021, 10:58 pm

During the Olympic games, one gold medal per event. It is like highlander. One person is the most wealthy at any time. One religion has the most follower at any one time. This list can go on and on. When another person takes the first place, the previous one is no longer first.
Life is not like the Olympics. But maybe you should have spent more time watching the cycling Maddison, or the relay races in swimming and running?
by coincidence, I know something about swimming. 25 sec 50 meter... when we split to create relay team fastest looks for second fastest and so on. If no arbitrator is involved the team of the 4 fastest will dominate. For training we ARTIFICIALLY split up the top few. it is still winner take all and it is still one team that is the best. it works just the same. If you focus the scope out further and look at the entire team it still works the same as single or many. As you focus on it again the pattern continues and eventually it is one. the only difference is in the magnification level plus, or minus.
Not really relevant. You can push an anlogy too far. Lets face it all those swinners can do other things, and so too can everybody else. But society is about joint enterprise. not about the individual no matter how much your American Ideology tries to tell you that. The cult of the individual is the cult of the psychopath.
ok, I agree that any analogy can be beaten into the ground. I followed the one you suggested as I believe it is like many things have more to them than on the surface.

So we have individualism and collectivism. Is your opinion that those that favor individualism are a psychopath? That's an extreme position for sure.

It's easy to sort out by country if the overall is individualism vs collectivism.

Do you believe those groups of ppl that follow more the culture of individualism are psychopathic such as the USA and perhaps China as collectivism is not; if yes that would for sure be some sort of ISM.

For example, east and west Germany in the past if that is a valid example of individualism vs collectivism. I pick that one as it's all the same race I believe.

Tell me more, what do you think about it?
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