Will racism ever be over?

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Consul
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:08 amImage
I think what is called "Turkestan" in this map is part of Southwest Asia.

In this map Pakistan is excluded from Southwest Asia. Is it part of Southern Asia instead (like India)?

I just read that not all think the Sudan is part of North Africa:

"The United Nations definition includes Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, and the Western Sahara, the territory disputed between Morocco and the Sahrawi Republic. The African Union definition includes the Western Sahara and Mauritania but not Sudan."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:08 am I'm German, and in German it is not the case that "(the) Orient" is "now usually understood to refer to regions and countries of eastern Asia."
By "the Orient" I (and many others) mean Southwest Asia + North Africa.
When I use "the Orientals" as a racial term, I distinguish it from the racial term "the Asians" (= "the East Asians").
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:08 am
I'm German, and in German it is not the case that "(the) Orient" is "now usually understood to refer to regions and countries of eastern Asia."
By "the Orient" I (and many others) mean Southwest Asia + North Africa.
That is interesting. Has that always been the case (say, for the last 300 years) in German?

According to the American Heritage dictionary the etymology is: "Middle English, from Old French, from Latin oriēns, orient-, rising sun, east, from present participle of orīrī, to arise, be born."

So one might say the "root" meaning is "east."
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:37 am
Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:08 am
I'm German, and in German it is not the case that "(the) Orient" is "now usually understood to refer to regions and countries of eastern Asia."
By "the Orient" I (and many others) mean Southwest Asia + North Africa.
That is interesting. Has that always been the case (say, for the last 300 years) in German?

According to the American Heritage dictionary the etymology is: "Middle English, from Old French, from Latin oriēns, orient-, rising sun, east, from present participle of orīrī, to arise, be born."

So one might say the "root" meaning is "east."
In German the etymological meaning of "Orient" is "die Richtung gegen Sonnenaufgang, der Osten, das Morgenland" ("the direction toward sunrise, the East, the Morning Land"); but the etymological meaning of a word isn't necessarily its current meaning.

As for your question, I cannot answer it yet; but I will do some linguistic research concerning the history of the use of "der Orient" in German.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:59 amAs for your question, I cannot answer it yet; but I will do some linguistic research concerning the history of the use of "der Orient" in German.
It seems to me that in German "der Orient" has always been used to refer to the regions or countries of the Near East or the Middle East rather than to the ones of the Far East (= East Asia).
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Consul wrote: November 30th, 2022, 1:03 amIt seems to me that in German "der Orient" has always been used to refer to the regions or countries of the Near East or the Middle East rather than to the ones of the Far East (= East Asia).
The German term "(der) Orient" may have been used by some to refer to the Eastern world as a whole, including e.g. China and Japan; but, for example, here's a map from 1912 by the German geographer Ewald Banse, in which the green area in the middle (representing North Africa and Southwest Asia) is called "Orient":

Image
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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The German dictionary DUDEN defines "Orient" as "vorder- und mittelasiatische Länder" = "the countries of Southwest Asia and Central Asia". So, according to this definition, the (Islamic) countries of North Africa aren't part of the Orient.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:34 pm

Well, you've obviously bought into the PM nonsense. If they exist, then they exist. What "emphasizing" them "promotes" is completely irrelevant to the fact that they exist. If the terms are descriptively useful then we use them, no matter what someone thinks they "promote." Merely using them doesn't "emphasize" or "promote" anything, any more than if I describe a dog as a collie, I'm "emphasizing" or "promoting" that breed. And, of course, recognizing and mentioning races does not "deny modern genetics." The terms denote obvious morphological features and a correlated geographical locus; genetic details are not part of the definitions. The terms only offend the sensibilities of some (ideologically gullible) geneticists.
By abandoning these old-fashioned categories we move toward a post-racial (and post-racist) culture.
Dream on! As long as differences among people exist, whether race, sex, religion, ethnicity, language, etc., there will be X-ists who discriminate against and even hate anyone not their X. "Post-racial culture" is another Pollyanna fantasy.
This is (intentionally?) obtuse, GE. Describing a dog as a "collie" does indeed emphasize and promote that breed. Haven't you ever watched the Westminster dog show on TV? There are "breed standards". If a dog doesn't meet them, and if it doesn't have pedigree certification from a breeder, it is disqualified. Hmmm. Isn't that reminiscent of Nazi Jew hunters looking into people's racial heritage, and checking to see whether they are circumcized to decide whether to ship them to the gas chambers? ?

Racists have long insisted that some "races" are genetically inferior to others. Wouldn't that claim make it reasonable to state that race is not a good description of human genetic variation? What's so terrible about trying to abandon these old racial categories that have led to suffering, bigotry, and injustice? Now that we have the tools (DNA testing) to discredit the 4 race theory as an effective scientific description of human genetic variation, why not abandon the theory altogether? What use is it?

As far as the "dream on" comment: thanks! I will dream on. Some day, bigotry may be far less harmful than it was in the past, or is today. Perhaps, in some halcyon future, same sex people will be allowed to marry, or adopt children. Oh. That's already happened. Doesn't that suggest that anti-bigotry campaigns need not be fruitless? Pollyanna fantasies may never be fully realized -- but our own history of decreasing bigotry clearly demonstrates that by striving to reach them, we can improve justice (and the level of play in professional sports). Jackie Robinson may not have made Major League Baseball a "post-racial" culture -- but he clearly moved it in that direction.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:51 pm [Oriental] is a geographical term, but geography has racial implications.
No, I don't think so. It's true that local/localised populations of any/all creatures gradually develop (genetically-based) variations, as so we can see local geographic differences between separated populations. Darwin documented all this some time ago. But this has nothing (directly) to do with the myth of 'race'.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 28th, 2022, 12:09 pm BTW, I learned from a friend yesterday that the term "oriental" is now disparaged also, in favor of "Asian." Which is uninformative, because it includes Indians, Pakistanis, even some Russians, who are not "oriental" (Mongoloid).
In the definitions you posted in a later note, it is the noun "Oriental" that is disparaged. As an adjective, which seems to be the use you are championing, your posted definitions did not include any criticism. Oh, and I don't think "oriental" refers to 'Mongoloid', I think it refers to someone who comes from 'the Orient' (many of whom are Mongoloid, but by no means all)?

There is Occidental too, with a complementary meaning.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Ecurb wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:05 am
This is (intentionally?) obtuse, GE. Describing a dog as a "collie" does indeed emphasize and promote that breed. Haven't you ever watched the Westminster dog show on TV?
No. Describing a dog as a "collie" does not "promote" or "emphasize" anything, any more than describing a car as a Ford promotes anything:

LOST DOG!

Female collie, white and golden, 3 years old, friendly. Has red collar. Answers to "Lassie." Please call . . . .


Dog breeders promote their breeds, but merely describing is not promoting. That is absurd.
There are "breed standards". If a dog doesn't meet them, and if it doesn't have pedigree certification from a breeder, it is disqualified. Hmmm. Isn't that reminiscent of Nazi Jew hunters looking into people's racial heritage, and checking to see whether they are circumcized to decide whether to ship them to the gas chambers?
Ah. So the person placing the ad for the lost dog is a Nazi?
Racists have long insisted that some "races" are genetically inferior to others. Wouldn't that claim make it reasonable to state that race is not a good description of human genetic variation?
It certainly would not; that is a glaring non sequitur. Common descriptive terms have NO judgmental or evaluative implications. The person reporting a stolen Ford is making no claim that Fords are superior or inferior to Hondas. The person advertising for her lost dog is making no claim that collies are inferior or superior to schnauzers. If someone wishes make claims of the latter sort they need to present some arguments and evidence for them. You can then attack those arguments and question that evidence.
What's so terrible about trying to abandon these old racial categories that have led to suffering, bigotry, and injustice?
Another mistake. "Racial categories" have not "led to" any suffering, injustice, etc. That is also absurd. What results in suffering and injustice are beliefs concerning those categories, and actions taken pursuant to those beliefs. That is where criticism is appropriate and might be effective. Do you imagine the bigots will cease noticing obvious racial differences and abandon their prejudices just because some airhead PMers claim races don't exist?
Perhaps, in some halcyon future, same sex people will be allowed to marry, or adopt children. Oh. That's already happened. Doesn't that suggest that anti-bigotry campaigns need not be fruitless?
Nothing wrong with anti-bigotry campaigns. But the changes you mention didn't occur because we discovered that there is no such thing as sexes (though the PMers peddled that nonsense).
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:21 am
GE Morton wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:51 pm [Oriental] is a geographical term, but geography has racial implications.
No, I don't think so. It's true that local/localised populations of any/all creatures gradually develop (genetically-based) variations, as so we can see local geographic differences between separated populations. Darwin documented all this some time ago. But this has nothing (directly) to do with the myth of 'race'.
That is incoherent. If "local/localised populations of any/all creatures gradually develop (genetically-based) variations, as so we can see local geographic differences between separated populations," then we have "races," don't we? Would you prefer a different term to denote those differences? Why?
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 30th, 2022, 10:27 am
In the definitions you posted in a later note, it is the noun "Oriental" that is disparaged. As an adjective, which seems to be the use you are championing, your posted definitions did not include any criticism. Oh, and I don't think "oriental" refers to 'Mongoloid', I think it refers to someone who comes from 'the Orient' (many of whom are Mongoloid, but by no means all)?
If "Orient" denotes east Asia (as it does in English, though apparently not in German), then virtually all native inhabitants of that region are Mongoloid. The trouble with replacing "oriental" (noun) with "Asian" is that the latter includes many people who are not EAST Asians. "Oriental" demarcates that latter group. It conveys more precise information.
There is Occidental too, with a complementary meaning.
Yes. The "root" meanings of "Orient" and "Occident" are "east" and "west" respectively.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:31 pm

No. Describing a dog as a "collie" does not "promote" or "emphasize" anything, any more than describing a car as a Ford promotes anything:

LOST DOG!

Female collie, white and golden, 3 years old, friendly. Has red collar. Answers to "Lassie." Please call . . . .


Dog breeders promote their breeds, but merely describing is not promoting. That is absurd.
There are "breed standards". If a dog doesn't meet them, and if it doesn't have pedigree certification from a breeder, it is disqualified. Hmmm. Isn't that reminiscent of Nazi Jew hunters looking into people's racial heritage, and checking to see whether they are circumcized to decide whether to ship them to the gas chambers?
Ah. So the person placing the ad for the lost dog is a Nazi?
This is nonsense. The concept of "breeds" of dogs may have originated with dogs being bred to perform certain functions. It is now defined by pedigrees and morphological "standards". Of course it's reasonable to describe a lost dog (or lost person) based on its physical characteristics. It may even be reasonable to say that collies tend to be skilled at herding sheep. But so are lots of other dogs that lack pedigree. Did you know that only "thoroughbreds" can compete in horse races? Why? What if the fastest horse is not a thoroughbred? Why should it be outlawed from racing? (Rumor has it that Secratariat was not a thoroughbred, and that the teaser horse may have fathered him, rather than the thoroughbred-certified sire.)
Racists have long insisted that some "races" are genetically inferior to others. Wouldn't that claim make it reasonable to state that race is not a good description of human genetic variation?
It certainly would not; that is a glaring non sequitur. Common descriptive terms have NO judgmental or evaluative implications. The person reporting a stolen Ford is making no claim that Fords are superior or inferior to Hondas. The person advertising for her lost dog is making no claim that collies are inferior or superior to schnauzers. If someone wishes make claims of the latter sort they need to present some arguments and evidence for them. You can then attack those arguments and question that evidence.
It's not a non sequitur at all. Descriptive terms may not be judgemental, but theories about genetic racial inferiority or superiority can be falisfied if the genetic basis for the theories is falisfied. What's so hard to understand about that? It seems pretty obvious. You're simply trying to change the subject, instead of arguing against what is clearly my point.
Another mistake. "Racial categories" have not "led to" any suffering, injustice, etc. That is also absurd. What results in suffering and injustice are beliefs concerning those categories, and actions taken pursuant to those beliefs. That is where criticism is appropriate and might be effective. Do you imagine the bigots will cease noticing obvious racial differences and abandon their prejudices just because some airhead PMers claim races don't exist?
That depends what we mean by "led to". Of course labels are not the sole cause of pernicious beliefs. But they may be involved. Why wouldn't they be? Europeans enslaved Africans. To justifiy their perfidy, they made claims about the genetic and racial inferiority of Africans. If the genetic similarity among "negroids" on which these claims are based is falsified some of the less moronic of these Europeans may concede they were wrong.
None of this, by the way, has anything to do with post-modernism, so why you act as if it does is a mystery. Geneitics is a modernist science.
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

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GE Morton wrote: November 30th, 2022, 12:31 pmAnother mistake. "Racial categories" have not "led to" any suffering, injustice, etc. That is also absurd. What results in suffering and injustice are beliefs concerning those categories, and actions taken pursuant to those beliefs. That is where criticism is appropriate and might be effective. Do you imagine the bigots will cease noticing obvious racial differences and abandon their prejudices just because some airhead PMers claim races don't exist?
QUOTE>
"The first doctrine is the view—which I shall call racialism—that there are heritable characteristics, possessed by members of our species, which allow us to divide them into a small set of races, in such a way that all the members of these races share certain traits and tendencies with each other that they do not share with members of any other race. These traits and tendencies characteristic of a race constitute, on the racialist view, a sort of racial essence; it is part of the content of racialism that the essential heritable characteristics of the 'Races of Man' account for more than the visible morphological characteristics—skin color, hair type, facial features—on the basis of which we make our informal classifications. Racialism is at the heart of nineteenth-century attempts to develop a science of racial difference, but it appears to have been believed by others—like Hegel, before then, and Crummell and many Africans since—who have had no interest in developing scientific theories.

Racialism is not, in itself, a doctrine that must be dangerous, even if the racial essence is thought to entail moral and intellectual dispositions. Provided positive moral qualities are distributed across the races, each can be respected, can have its 'separate but equal' place. Unlike most Western-educated people, I believe—and I shall argue in the essay on Du Bois—that racialism is false, but by itself, it seems to be a cognitive rather than a moral problem. The issue is how the world is, not how we would want it to be.

Racialism is, however, a presupposition of other doctrines that have been called 'racism', and these other doctrines have been, in the last few centuries, the basis of a great deal of human suffering and the source of a great deal of moral error."

(Appiah, Anthony K. In My Father's House: Africa in the Philosophy of Culture. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. p. 13)

"Throughout this book, a distinction is made between racialism and racism. Racialism describes, distinguishes, and classifies racial or phenotypic (observable) physical difference among humans. Racialism includes scientific and ideological approaches that take notice and account of race. Racial data counted and recorded in the U.S. Census, in some medical studies, and in affirmative action profiles is racialist. Biomedical research comparing data on “blacks” and “whites,” for example, in a study of high blood pressure, is racialist, that is, it uses race as a significant variable in science. Racism takes note of racial difference but evaluates that difference, ranking it into superior or inferior, higher or lower racial types. Racial profiling of black shoppers, Latino drivers, or Arab airline passengers is both racialist—taking account of race—and racist, judging black shoppers as potential thieves, Latino drivers as transporting drugs, and Arab passengers as potential hijackers or terrorists. Racism both takes note of race and makes judgments about good and bad behavior, better or worse attributes."

(Fluehr-Lobban, Carolyn. Race and Racism: An Introduction. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 2019. pp. 3-4)
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