Will racism ever be over?

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Good_Egg
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Good_Egg »

The problem with this discussion is that "racism" means too many different things.

Arguably the core meaning goes something like "a belief in the intrinsic merits or demerits of particular races" and by extension actions motivated by such a belief. That belief has been debunked, to the point where it should now be impossible to hold in good faith. How much more "over" can you get ?

But if you extend the definition, so that true statements (e.g. a claim that people with the same skin colour have a higher probability of sharing a common culture) are counted as racist, or legitimate group self-interest (e.g. cheering on the national team against opponents who happen to have different skin colour) is counted as racist, then such "racism" will never go away, because people will always perceive such truths and express such sentiments.

There may be in-between usages. But the point is that meaning is usage and usage varies. Recognise reification error when you see it.

The people to watch out for are those who won't reveal what definition they are using. Typically because their worldview depends on equivocation - identifying something harmless or legitimate with something hateful.
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Good_Egg wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 5:12 am The problem with this discussion is that "racism" means too many different things.

Arguably the core meaning goes something like "a belief in the intrinsic merits or demerits of particular races" and by extension actions motivated by such a belief. That belief has been debunked, to the point where it should now be impossible to hold in good faith. How much more "over" can you get ?

But if you extend the definition, so that true statements (e.g. a claim that people with the same skin colour have a higher probability of sharing a common culture) are counted as racist, or legitimate group self-interest (e.g. cheering on the national team against opponents who happen to have different skin colour) is counted as racist, then such "racism" will never go away, because people will always perceive such truths and express such sentiments.

There may be in-between usages. But the point is that meaning is usage and usage varies. Recognise reification error when you see it.

The people to watch out for are those who won't reveal what definition they are using. Typically because their worldview depends on equivocation - identifying something harmless or legitimate with something hateful.
You are absolutely correct that racism has about as many meanings as there are people to discuss it. You are also correct that some of the meanings refer to harmless activity. Having said that, I tend to concentrate specifically on two areas. First, the difference in how young black men are treated (killed) by the police, official representatives of the government. And the difference in current economic resources between certain groups that originated in the "free" labor provided by the enslaved in the past.
"As usual... it depends."
Slavedevice
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Slavedevice »

It’s been proven scientifically that humans (and all mammals) tend to like their own features. There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence. It’s utterly ignorant to think all races will mix smoothly. I’m not talking about abusing another race. I’m simply realizing science and psychology.
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:17 am It’s been proven scientifically that humans (and all mammals) tend to like their own features. There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence. It’s utterly ignorant to think all races will mix smoothly. I’m not talking about abusing another race. I’m simply realizing science and psychology.
If there are "differences" in psychology and intelligence between races (which despite your glib assertion, is definitely not universally accepted within those studying this area), what do you propose folks do with this "information"?
"As usual... it depends."
Slavedevice
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Slavedevice »

I don’t care what people do with it! I was simply answering the question if racism will end. It doesn’t automatically mean you wish harm to another race just because you don’t want to reproduce with them. I even know black people who think we should not marry outside our race. So I guess black people can be racist too, I get that. I look at my beautiful blonde blue eyed daughter and it sickens me to think of her having a baby by a black man (which I am 110% positive she would not)
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 2:07 pm I don’t care what people do with it! I was simply answering the question if racism will end. It doesn’t automatically mean you wish harm to another race just because you don’t want to reproduce with them. I even know black people who think we should not marry outside our race. So I guess black people can be racist too, I get that. I look at my beautiful blonde blue eyed daughter and it sickens me to think of her having a baby by a black man (which I am 110% positive she would not)
Suprising no one.

Why wouldn't "black people" be capable of racism? The idea that they can't being essentially racist.
"As usual... it depends."
Slavedevice
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Slavedevice »

Dang, did I not say “black people can be racist too”?! Wtf
Anyway, I have never ever wished any harm to anyone because they were a different race. I do think that black people have a HUGE athletic advantage over whites. It’s really not fair to make white people compete with them! There should be a league for whites and Asians. The pay level would be lower but at least it would be a more even match. How could someone from another planet not take one look and say the races are athletically equal.
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LuckyR
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by LuckyR »

Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 2:31 pm Dang, did I not say “black people can be racist too”?! Wtf
Anyway, I have never ever wished any harm to anyone because they were a different race. I do think that black people have a HUGE athletic advantage over whites. It’s really not fair to make white people compete with them! There should be a league for whites and Asians. The pay level would be lower but at least it would be a more even match. How could someone from another planet not take one look and say the races are athletically equal.
It was the "I guess" you needed to add to an otherwise universally accepted reality that I was referencing.

As to athleticism and the unspoken intelligence it implies, if there are differences BETWEEN groups, that difference is miniscule compared to the differences WITHIN groups.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: April 5th, 2022, 5:34 pm
Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 2:31 pm Dang, did I not say “black people can be racist too”?! Wtf
Anyway, I have never ever wished any harm to anyone because they were a different race. I do think that black people have a HUGE athletic advantage over whites. It’s really not fair to make white people compete with them! There should be a league for whites and Asians. The pay level would be lower but at least it would be a more even match. How could someone from another planet not take one look and say the races are athletically equal.
It was the "I guess" you needed to add to an otherwise universally accepted reality that I was referencing.

As to athleticism and the unspoken intelligence it implies, if there are differences BETWEEN groups, that difference is miniscule compared to the differences WITHIN groups.
Sadly humans seem to prefer to dwell upon and exaggerate the smallest differences.

In ancient Pompeii after the games people who supported different teams would show each other much violence that would lead to murder, with no other difference except that one side was "blue" and another "green". These colours represented nothing, and supporters were otherwise ordinary Pompeiians.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:17 am It’s been proven scientifically that humans (and all mammals) tend to like their own features. There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence. It’s utterly ignorant to think all races will mix smoothly. I’m not talking about abusing another race. I’m simply realizing science and psychology.
Yet a dog will be as happy with a french bulldog or a great dane. Differences so great that an alien from another planet would assume them to be different species.

Would you care to share the source of this study?
I do not think you have a warrant to use this to support an inevitability of racism especially since humans are also clearly attracted to differences and the exotic, and were it not for culturally informed bigotry mixed "race" marriages would be more successful than they are . Of all the couples I know the mixed race marriages have been easily the happiest.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sy Borg »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 5th, 2022, 5:58 pm
Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:17 am It’s been proven scientifically that humans (and all mammals) tend to like their own features. There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence. It’s utterly ignorant to think all races will mix smoothly. I’m not talking about abusing another race. I’m simply realizing science and psychology.
Yet a dog will be as happy with a french bulldog or a great dane.
Slavedevice is right. Anyone who knows dogs knows that they tend to be extra excited to encounter dogs of similar morphology. Further, French bulldogs are especially social and fearless dogs, but poodles, pomeranians and other small and sensitive breeds are often highly intimidated by larger dogs, often resulting in ridiculous displays of "aggression" .

Further, much that is said to be racism is not racism. It's lazy and incorrect to attribute cultural differences to race but it happens all the time. There are massive divisions between people of the same race/colour/morphology. Black Africans were enslaving other black Africans for thousands of years before Americans were blamed for "starting" invented slavery. In fact, for a time European slavers were afraid to venture too far into Africa due to tropical diseases, but the African slavers had such a well-developed system of slavery, that they had an arrangement for the Europeans to come to port, where the African slavers would hand over their less fortunate peers.

Consider the divisions between white Russia and Ukraine. Yellow China and Japan. Black Sudan and South Sudan et al. None of these bitter conflicts has anything to do with race.

It's not uncommon for slights that have nothing to do with race, sex or sexuality to be attributed to these "trigger issues". Crying wolf dilutes the impact of more serious and genuine complaints. When something is on offer - be it money, support, preferential treatment or whatever, you can be sure that a wave of shysters will try to play the system, making life far harder for genuine complainants. I worked in OH&S and saw plenty of genuine workers comp claimants fall through the cracks of a system made ever more unforgiving due to repeated abuses.

The second biggest enemy of a person at risk of discrimination, after bigots themselves, are dodgy complainants who tend to damage any system designed to help the vulnerable.
Slavedevice
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Slavedevice »

Good_Egg
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Good_Egg »

Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:17 am There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence.
Setting aside intelligence, which can be controversial in its own right, do you have evidence for the existence of differences in racial psychology ? I.e. innate psychological differences between races, that are not cultural ?

Because that's not my understanding. Of course, I could be wrong...
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
Slavedevice
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Slavedevice »

Ok, here’s what I can say is science:

1. People of African decent have higher levels of testosterone. This is fact

2. There is no country under African leadership that has reached the modernization as white controlled countries.

3. Black people all over the world score significantly lower IQ. In Sub-Sahara Africa they usually barely reach 70.

4. Black societies consistently need assistance from more developed societies.

5. Black families with NO FATHER in the home is off the chain compared to ALL other races.
>>. This is completely ridiculous to try to blame on discrimination - what does discrimination have to do with Sorry parenting?!?!

Wanna line up and take an IQ test? Anytime Bro
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Sculptor1
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Re: Will racism ever be over?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Sy Borg wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:53 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 5th, 2022, 5:58 pm
Slavedevice wrote: April 5th, 2022, 7:17 am It’s been proven scientifically that humans (and all mammals) tend to like their own features. There is also evidence that after thousands of years of developing in an extremely different environment, there are differences in racial psychology and intelligence. It’s utterly ignorant to think all races will mix smoothly. I’m not talking about abusing another race. I’m simply realizing science and psychology.
Yet a dog will be as happy with a french bulldog or a great dane.
Slavedevice is right. Anyone who knows dogs knows that they tend to be extra excited to encounter dogs of similar morphology.
That's not really relevant, Since that does not amount to racism in any sense.
My own dog will charge the instant she sees a cat, from as far away as would make the cat appear a tiny object 100s of yards away. Yet upon seeing a Chihuahua from a similar distance approaches knowing that the object is also a dog despite the profile being difficult to distinguish from any other small animal. I agree that she seems to get extra excited about fellow Labradors. I put this down to familial recognition. In other words she sees a proxy for her departed siblings. So whilst species identification is strong the below examples show how easy they are to overcome.
But this positive associations do not amount to any evidence towards racism.

I've know mother dogs suckle kittens. And cats and dogs brought up in the same home can be the best of friends.
Even in the wild animals of diverse species will nurture young from other species.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5KMBX2cKGk
If racism is so unavoidable how come these negative associations are so easy broken by a little familiarity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_rLYtwco0g
Dog adopts baby boar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrJi-P61aLY

The tendency towards racism is weak and easily broken.
Conclusion racism could easily be "over".
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