Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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Sushan
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Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the November 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide by Gustavo Kinrys, MD


Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am This topic is about the November 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide by Gustavo Kinrys, MD


Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Both you and the author are correct. You are right there are numerous factors that impact behavior. However the author is right that of these numerous factors, only cognition is under your control, thus is where your ability to change behavior lies.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sushan @Lucky

Part of the issue is whether it is simply behaviour which needs to be focused on for change. Certainly, it can be that problems such as obsessive-compulsive disorder and addiction can be approached by changing behaviours and even drawing up programs to address these.

Of course, the cognitive-behavioral approach is also focusing on changing cognitions to affect emotions too, and has been used to help depression and other mental health problems, with or without the aid of medication. The ABC model of affect, behaviour and cognition can be worked with to enable reflection on the way in which it is not simply events but the interpretation of events which affect emotions. I do know many people who have found benefits from this therapy, although some report that it does not pay enough attention to traumatic experiences of the past, because it is mainly concerned with the here and now and the establishment of goals. One important factor which may come into play is having a compatible therapist. Also, it is likely that it may work in conjunction with other factors in life, but it is hard to generalise because individuals vary so much in what support they need to address emotional wellbeing.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Putting aside "personality traits" because this might be a speculative concept and putting aside "genetic factors" because it isn't validly known whether and if then how these influence cognition, all of the rest " bonding and attachment" (->cognition of the objects one is attached to), cognition of "environmental factors", "traumatic events" (cognition of the causes that cause trauma) depend on cognition. So the hypothesis "Changing your thinking will change everything" cannot be refuted. But of course the hypothesis cannot be proven neither.
To me it appears that the cause of changing one's thinking may be significant (is it merely intended auto-suggestion or does it appear to be an insight that changed one's thinking?) because one's thinking depends on learned habits and these can be very persistent even down to the level of intuitions and thus override all intentions to change one's thinking.
What also might have a significant influence is the attitude towards one's thoughts and thinking as such.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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LuckyR wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 4:20 pm
Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am This topic is about the November 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide by Gustavo Kinrys, MD


Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Both you and the author are correct. You are right there are numerous factors that impact behavior. However the author is right that of these numerous factors, only cognition is under your control, thus is where your ability to change behavior lies.
Yes, you have a point. Though many factors affect our behaviour many of them are out of our control. One such thing which is under our control is our cognition; how we see the world and the day to day happenings. In that aspect being positive will make one's behaviour positive and vice versa.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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JackDaydream wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 11:57 am @Sushan @Lucky

Part of the issue is whether it is simply behaviour which needs to be focused on for change. Certainly, it can be that problems such as obsessive-compulsive disorder and addiction can be approached by changing behaviours and even drawing up programs to address these.

Of course, the cognitive-behavioral approach is also focusing on changing cognitions to affect emotions too, and has been used to help depression and other mental health problems, with or without the aid of medication. The ABC model of affect, behaviour and cognition can be worked with to enable reflection on the way in which it is not simply events but the interpretation of events which affect emotions. I do know many people who have found benefits from this therapy, although some report that it does not pay enough attention to traumatic experiences of the past, because it is mainly concerned with the here and now and the establishment of goals. One important factor which may come into play is having a compatible therapist. Also, it is likely that it may work in conjunction with other factors in life, but it is hard to generalise because individuals vary so much in what support they need to address emotional wellbeing.
You have highlighted a very important fact here. Yes, the cognitive approach will be beneficial in treating many cognition and affect rrelated conditions, but correct assessment and diagnosis is a must to begin with. And it is quite unlikely to an ordinary person to self diagnose his/her condition without the support of a therapist.

And all cases have to be evaluated individually since people as well as their illnesses or conditions differ. So there is a high chance for a book to over generalize a diagnosis, and probably end up with misdiagnosis.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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stevie wrote: November 4th, 2021, 2:59 am
Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Putting aside "personality traits" because this might be a speculative concept and putting aside "genetic factors" because it isn't validly known whether and if then how these influence cognition, all of the rest " bonding and attachment" (->cognition of the objects one is attached to), cognition of "environmental factors", "traumatic events" (cognition of the causes that cause trauma) depend on cognition. So the hypothesis "Changing your thinking will change everything" cannot be refuted. But of course the hypothesis cannot be proven neither.
To me it appears that the cause of changing one's thinking may be significant (is it merely intended auto-suggestion or does it appear to be an insight that changed one's thinking?) because one's thinking depends on learned habits and these can be very persistent even down to the level of intuitions and thus override all intentions to change one's thinking.
What also might have a significant influence is the attitude towards one's thoughts and thinking as such.
It seems that we are in an agreement on cognition affecting behaviour. On the part of proving it, you may have suggested the difficulty in proving due to the inability to look into someone's mind and see whether the cognition has changed. But we can asses one's behavioural changes. And if the only interventions that have done are supposed to change the cognition, then I think we can reasonably assume the cognition change have changed the behaviour. What do you think?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: November 9th, 2021, 12:13 am
stevie wrote: November 4th, 2021, 2:59 am
Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Putting aside "personality traits" because this might be a speculative concept and putting aside "genetic factors" because it isn't validly known whether and if then how these influence cognition, all of the rest " bonding and attachment" (->cognition of the objects one is attached to), cognition of "environmental factors", "traumatic events" (cognition of the causes that cause trauma) depend on cognition. So the hypothesis "Changing your thinking will change everything" cannot be refuted. But of course the hypothesis cannot be proven neither.
To me it appears that the cause of changing one's thinking may be significant (is it merely intended auto-suggestion or does it appear to be an insight that changed one's thinking?) because one's thinking depends on learned habits and these can be very persistent even down to the level of intuitions and thus override all intentions to change one's thinking.
What also might have a significant influence is the attitude towards one's thoughts and thinking as such.
It seems that we are in an agreement on cognition affecting behaviour. On the part of proving it, you may have suggested the difficulty in proving due to the inability to look into someone's mind and see whether the cognition has changed. But we can asses one's behavioural changes. And if the only interventions that have done are supposed to change the cognition, then I think we can reasonably assume the cognition change have changed the behaviour. What do you think?
Yes, this is the underlying model psychotherapy relies upon. Especially important are interviews about 'inner life' because usually everyday outer behaviour can't and isn't monitored. So there always remains an uncertainty because the person interviewed may be an excellent actor.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by Spyrith »

This "changing your thinking approach" is very similar to Adlerian psychology. It claims that the cure to many mental issues such as self-esteem problems, not finding a purpose in the world, etc. can all be "treated" by changing the internal narrative you have of your life and your life's story. This in turn should help you see your life differently and find the necessary steps to fix it.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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stevie wrote: November 9th, 2021, 3:02 am
Sushan wrote: November 9th, 2021, 12:13 am
stevie wrote: November 4th, 2021, 2:59 am
Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
Putting aside "personality traits" because this might be a speculative concept and putting aside "genetic factors" because it isn't validly known whether and if then how these influence cognition, all of the rest " bonding and attachment" (->cognition of the objects one is attached to), cognition of "environmental factors", "traumatic events" (cognition of the causes that cause trauma) depend on cognition. So the hypothesis "Changing your thinking will change everything" cannot be refuted. But of course the hypothesis cannot be proven neither.
To me it appears that the cause of changing one's thinking may be significant (is it merely intended auto-suggestion or does it appear to be an insight that changed one's thinking?) because one's thinking depends on learned habits and these can be very persistent even down to the level of intuitions and thus override all intentions to change one's thinking.
What also might have a significant influence is the attitude towards one's thoughts and thinking as such.
It seems that we are in an agreement on cognition affecting behaviour. On the part of proving it, you may have suggested the difficulty in proving due to the inability to look into someone's mind and see whether the cognition has changed. But we can asses one's behavioural changes. And if the only interventions that have done are supposed to change the cognition, then I think we can reasonably assume the cognition change have changed the behaviour. What do you think?
Yes, this is the underlying model psychotherapy relies upon. Especially important are interviews about 'inner life' because usually everyday outer behaviour can't and isn't monitored. So there always remains an uncertainty because the person interviewed may be an excellent actor.
Yes, there are talented actors and some are diagnosed as people with Munchausen syndrome. And sometimes even experienced clinicians are mislead by clever acting. But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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Sushan wrote: November 13th, 2021, 12:06 am ... But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.
Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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Spyrith wrote: November 9th, 2021, 6:27 am This "changing your thinking approach" is very similar to Adlerian psychology. It claims that the cure to many mental issues such as self-esteem problems, not finding a purpose in the world, etc. can all be "treated" by changing the internal narrative you have of your life and your life's story. This in turn should help you see your life differently and find the necessary steps to fix it.
Adler broke from Freudian theories and claimed that individual's mentality is inseparable from social, love related and vocational matters. Later these teachings inspired Maslow. As per Adler people tend to compensate their inferior thoughts by various means and one way is to have grandiose thoughts and feelings. This can be related to someone changing his/her inner narrative into a positive side. It is difficult but not impossible. But at the same time we have to keep in mind that resignation is also an option to such inferiorly felt individuals.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

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stevie wrote: November 13th, 2021, 1:26 am
Sushan wrote: November 13th, 2021, 12:06 am ... But this acting is usually done by healthy ones to show that they are sick in order to get various benefits, but the other way round is quite rare to occur since there is no gain for them by showing that they are healthy. And also when you are suffering from a psychiatric illness it is hard to pretend like not having such an illness in front of trained eyes of a clinician.
Note the case of psychiatrically ill criminals. There are cases that have been diagnosed severe psychiatric disorders and but are very intelligent excellent actors nevertheless manipulating their interviewers into thinking that an applied therapy has been successful. Thus some have been set free just to take up their criminal behaviour again.
I agree. The infamous serial killer Ted Bundy was a known manipulator. Many of his interviewers believed what he said, though luckily he ended up in death raw. But such skilled people are quite rare. Yes, there are intelligent psychopaths who might pretend as being cured and then continue to carry on with their doings. Best thing is to keep such people detained for a certain time though it will raise human right related issues.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am This topic is about the November 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide by Gustavo Kinrys, MD


Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.
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Re: Changing your thinking will change everything, do you agree?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: November 13th, 2021, 7:43 am
Sushan wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 7:23 am Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) says that cognition and behavior are inter-related and have an influence on each other. If we want to modify behavior, we have to change our thoughts in the first place. The tension that we develop is a result of our perception and the thinking based on that perception. So the change of thinking pattern is the only thing necessary for a positive outcome as per CBT.

But I think our behavior is not only directed by cognition. Our personality traits, our bonding and attachment (emotional factor) with our relations, environmental factors, genetic factors, and traumatic events make us behave differently than we normally do. And they will affect our brain and mentality as well.

So will a change of thinking will change the rest, or will it need a wholistic approach?
I imagine that if mood is the cause of bad behaviour, CBT is unlikely to change much behaviour. Bad moods are often caused not by lack of reasoning but by hormonal changes , illness, reasonable fears, or fatigue.
But bad moods create the hormonal changes, so modifying your behaviour changes the production of hormones.
This is a no brainer CBT works .
One method is to acknoweldge subconscious fears, rather than allow them to fester and change your cheminstry. KNowing what bothers and and owning that helps you deal with problems and avoid them.
We all know that avoiding a fight in the street means that your body will not produce the adrenaline that joining the fight would initiate. The same is true of many other situations.
Your mental state is not a cause of chemistry, it is the chemistry. Moods and chemistry go hand in hand.
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