Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

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Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:49 pm What sort of "investment in people" would you suggest that would earn them a profit?

That's an easy one. Buy people in Porto-Novo or Lagos, ship them overseas, and then sell them.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 18th, 2022, 3:23 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:49 pm What sort of "investment in people" would you suggest that would earn them a profit?
That's an easy one. Buy people in Porto-Novo or Lagos, ship them overseas, and then sell them.
Heh. I doubt that is what Amos had in mind.
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:33 pm
Belindi wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:17 pm
In the case of political regimes, forced by whoever, or whatever social class, is in power.
Ok, that is an answer --- a vague one --- to the "who" question. Now, just what "force" is this "social class" exerting against those at "lower levels"?
Where do I begin! GEM, all societies have a ruling elite.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 5:22 am
GE Morton wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:33 pm
Belindi wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:17 pm
In the case of political regimes, forced by whoever, or whatever social class, is in power.
Ok, that is an answer --- a vague one --- to the "who" question. Now, just what "force" is this "social class" exerting against those at "lower levels"?
Where do I begin! GEM, all societies have a ruling elite.
That may be so, though "ruling elite" is vague. But it doesn't answer the question: what "force" are they exerting against the "lower levels" --- what are the latter being "forced" to do?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:09 pm What "force" are they exerting against the "lower levels" --- what are the latter being "forced" to do?
The force they exert is the threat of poverty, and the inability of workers to feed and clothe themselves and their families. The "latter" are forced to create wealth for the wealthy. And in return they earn just enough peanuts to survive, while the 10 richest men in the world have doubled their personal wealth during the last two covid-years.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:09 pm
Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 5:22 am
GE Morton wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:33 pm
Belindi wrote: January 15th, 2022, 2:17 pm
In the case of political regimes, forced by whoever, or whatever social class, is in power.
Ok, that is an answer --- a vague one --- to the "who" question. Now, just what "force" is this "social class" exerting against those at "lower levels"?
Where do I begin! GEM, all societies have a ruling elite.
That may be so, though "ruling elite" is vague. But it doesn't answer the question: what "force" are they exerting against the "lower levels" --- what are the latter being "forced" to do?
The lower classes are forced to be relatively poor. Comparative poverty defines the lower classes, under all known regimes.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:20 pm ...the 10 richest men in the world have doubled their personal wealth during the last two covid-years.
See this tweet that I posted earlier, and the article it references. [There's a typo in the quote, though: it says "millions", but means "billions".]
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GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:20 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:09 pm What "force" are they exerting against the "lower levels" --- what are the latter being "forced" to do?
The force they exert is the threat of poverty, and the inability of workers to feed and clothe themselves and their families.
That is lefty demagoguery, PC. No one "threatens" anyone else with "poverty," and in any case, such a threat would be plausible and constitute force only if it was backed by certain actions. Suppose your neighbor approached you and exclaimed, "I'm gonna make you poor!" Unless he then began stealing your property, destroying it, or perhaps imprisoning you to prevent you from earning a living --- exerting actual force --- his threat would be hollow, and meaningless.

And, of course, any inability of workers to feed themselves is not due to any "force" exerted upon them by any "elite," or anyone else. You need to apply the "nonexistence test" to these claims --- would the workers have any more abilities if the "elites" did not exist?
The "latter" are forced to create wealth for the wealthy.
Er, no. No one forces any worker to create wealth for anyone. "Forces" exerted by nature, such as one's need to eat, are not morally relevant forces, since they are not exerted by one moral agent against another. If a worker does not wish to "create wealth" for an employer, he is free to quit his job and find some other means to meet his personal needs. That he has no better alternatives is not the doing of any "elite." Again, you need to apply the "nonexistence test."

Lefties regularly equate a refusal by Alfie to feed/clothe/house Bruno with Alfie's stealing from or "forcing" Bruno. That is lefty sophistry.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:44 pm
The lower classes are forced to be relatively poor. Comparative poverty defines the lower classes, under all known regimes.
Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:51 pm

Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
The forces that are exerted to support the economic status quo are not that difficult to discern. They include (but are not limited to):

1) Border patrols that forcibly prevent people from poor countries from emmigrating to rich countries.

2) Armies which prevent the invasion of rich countries by poor countries.

3) Police forces which enforce property laws with guns, billy clubs and jails.

4) A legal system (supported forcibly) which allows limited control (by elites) of the means of production and the products being produced.

These forces are deployed by governments. Governments are not "economic elites" themselves, although they may be unduely influenced by them. We can argue, of course, about whether these forces are justified, are forces for good or for evil, or are forces which in the end promote human well-being. I'm not sure why you have to ask "What force is being exerted and by whom?", though. The answer seems obvious.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:18 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:51 pm

Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
The forces that are exerted to support the economic status quo are not that difficult to discern. They include (but are not limited to):

1) Border patrols that forcibly prevent people from poor countries from emmigrating to rich countries.

2) Armies which prevent the invasion of rich countries by poor countries.

3) Police forces which enforce property laws with guns, billy clubs and jails.

4) A legal system (supported forcibly) which allows limited control (by elites) of the means of production and the products being produced.
Well, you just listed a slew of forces exerted to resist force. Force is always justified in those cases. You need some forces initiated by the "elites" against "the poor."

So try again.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:54 pm
Ecurb wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:18 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:51 pm

Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
The forces that are exerted to support the economic status quo are not that difficult to discern. They include (but are not limited to):

1) Border patrols that forcibly prevent people from poor countries from emmigrating to rich countries.

2) Armies which prevent the invasion of rich countries by poor countries.

3) Police forces which enforce property laws with guns, billy clubs and jails.

4) A legal system (supported forcibly) which allows limited control (by elites) of the means of production and the products being produced.
Well, you just listed a slew of forces exerted to resist force. Force is always justified in those cases. You need some forces initiated by the "elites" against "the poor."

So try again.
Elites are defined by their actual or potential superior power within a society. Actual powers include more influence over ideas e.g. established religion and more expensive schools, force by police skewed to favour members of the elite, and inherited wealth and the material advantages it brings.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:54 pm


Well, you just listed a slew of forces exerted to resist force. Force is always justified in those cases. You need some forces initiated by the "elites" against "the poor."

So try again.
Not true. Preventing people from crossing borders is not "resisting force". Neither is jailing people for shop lifting, or tresspassing, or keeping goods they have made in the employ of someone else.

In addition, I never claimed that these uses of force weren't "justified". I specifically said that's "arguable". I also said that these forces were not initiated by the elite: instead, my post directly answered your question: "What force is being exerted against them (the lower classses), and by whom?" I thought the answer was obvious. If you want to ask a different question, feel free to do so. (By the way, I don't "need" forces initiated by the elites. Why would I?)
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:03 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:51 pm
Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
Elites are defined by their actual or potential superior power within a society. Actual powers include more influence over ideas e.g. established religion and more expensive schools, force by police skewed to favour members of the elite, and inherited wealth and the material advantages it brings.
Er, Belindi, influence, inherited wealth, and material advantages don't constitute force. And if the force exerted by police is to resist or redress (actual) force, such as robbery, stealing, assaults, etc., it is justified. In what way does it favor "the elite"?

You still haven't answered the question.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:46 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:54 pm


Well, you just listed a slew of forces exerted to resist force. Force is always justified in those cases. You need some forces initiated by the "elites" against "the poor."

So try again.
Not true. Preventing people from crossing borders is not "resisting force". Neither is jailing people for shop lifting, or tresspassing, or keeping goods they have made in the employ of someone else.
Sorry, but they are. Shoplifting and trespassing are forcibly taking the property of another. So is "keeping goods they have made in the employ of someone else," if those goods were made pursuant to a contract with that person. It is another form of stealing.

Preventing people from crossing borders illegally is justified force. It is a form of trespassing --- forcibly entering upon the property of another without permission.
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