Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

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Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:57 pm

Sorry, but they are. Shoplifting and trespassing are forcibly taking the property of another. So is "keeping goods they have made in the employ of someone else," if those goods were made pursuant to a contract with that person. It is another form of stealing.

Preventing people from crossing borders illegally is justified force. It is a form of trespassing --- forcibly entering upon the property of another without permission.
You have a strange concept of what constitutes "force". The only "force" involved in shoplifting is that required to lift the product to your pocket -- minor indeed. Trespassing is not "forcibly taking the property of another" -- it isn't "forcible" and it isn't "taking the property of another".

You are dependent on your own definitions of property to claim that any of these legal infractions are immoral -- and are straining credulity to say they are "forcible". However, they are clearly prevented and punished with the use of force. Of course you are right that given standard property law, trespassing, entering countries illegally, and shoplifting are illegal, and perhaps it is jutified to use force to prevent them or punish transgressors. I grant that. But why you insist that walking from one spot to another is "forcibly taking the property of another" is unclear. Common sense says such a claim is ridiculous. That's why "trespassing" and "robbery' are two distinct crimes.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:49 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:20 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:09 pm What "force" are they exerting against the "lower levels" --- what are the latter being "forced" to do?


The force they exert is the threat of poverty, and the inability of workers to feed and clothe themselves and their families.


That is lefty demagoguery, PC. No one "threatens" anyone else with "poverty," and in any case, such a threat would be plausible and constitute force only if it was backed by certain actions. Suppose your neighbor approached you and exclaimed, "I'm gonna make you poor!" Unless he then began stealing your property, destroying it, or perhaps imprisoning you to prevent you from earning a living --- exerting actual force --- his threat would be hollow, and meaningless.

And, of course, any inability of workers to feed themselves is not due to any "force" exerted upon them by any "elite," or anyone else. You need to apply the "nonexistence test" to these claims --- would the workers have any more abilities if the "elites" did not exist?

The "latter" are forced to create wealth for the wealthy.


Er, no. No one forces any worker to create wealth for anyone. "Forces" exerted by nature, such as one's need to eat, are not morally relevant forces, since they are not exerted by one moral agent against another. If a worker does not wish to "create wealth" for an employer, he is free to quit his job and find some other means to meet his personal needs. That he has no better alternatives is not the doing of any "elite." Again, you need to apply the "nonexistence test."

Lefties regularly equate a refusal by Alfie to feed/clothe/house Bruno with Alfie's stealing from or "forcing" Bruno. That is lefty sophistry.
<sigh> No, it's not Alfie's 'refusal to feed Bruno', it's the tinyness of the wage that Alfie offers Bruno to earn his food/clothes/etc, in the context of Chris, Des and Eddie (his billionaire mates) also offering the same slave-labour wages.
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GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 4:34 pm
<sigh> No, it's not Alfie's 'refusal to feed Bruno', it's the tinyness of the wage that Alfie offers Bruno to earn his food/clothes/etc, in the context of Chris, Des and Eddie (his billionaire mates) also offering the same slave-labour wages.
You apparently didn't apply the nonexistence test to your claims.

No offering, of any kind, in any context, constitutes force. That no one offers more, or that no better options are available, doesn't constitute force (in the morally relevant sense) either. You're misusing that term.

And "slave labor wages" is an oxymoron. Labor which the laborer is free to take on or reject, and for which he is paid a wage, is the antithesis of slavery. You're indulging in Newspeak: "Freedom is slavery," etc.

Leftyism is rife with, and depends upon, that sort of nonsense.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 19th, 2022, 4:16 pm
You have a strange concept of what constitutes "force". The only "force" involved in shoplifting is that required to lift the product to your pocket -- minor indeed. Trespassing is not "forcibly taking the property of another" -- it isn't "forcible" and it isn't "taking the property of another".
Taking physical possession of something that is not your property, without invitation or permission, is force in the morally relevant sense --- an act by a moral agent which inflicts loss or injury on another moral agent. And, yes, trespassing is a taking of property, even if momentary.
You are dependent on your own definitions of property to claim that any of these legal infractions are immoral . . .
Er, no. My definition of "property" is the definition found in any dictionary and understood throughout the liberal tradition and the common law.
Of course you are right that given standard property law, trespassing, entering countries illegally, and shoplifting are illegal, and perhaps it is jutified to use force to prevent them or punish transgressors.
Theft and trespassing are immoral whether or not it is against any law.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 8:35 pm ]Taking physical possession of something that is not your property, without invitation or permission, is force in the morally relevant sense --- an act by a moral agent which inflicts loss or injury on another moral agent. And, yes, trespassing is a taking of property, even if momentary.
OK. "In the morally relevant sense". Just not in the sense of actual reality.
Theft and trespassing are immoral whether or not it is against any law.
Without the law, theft and trespassing would not exist. That's my point. They are legal issues, not moral ones. How is walking where you want to walk a "moral issue" -- except inasmuch as citizens have an obligation to obey the law?
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 19th, 2022, 9:58 pm
OK. "In the morally relevant sense". Just not in the sense of actual reality.
Ah. Morality is not "reality," eh?
Without the law, theft and trespassing would not exist. That's my point. They are legal issues, not moral ones. How is walking where you want to walk a "moral issue" -- except inasmuch as citizens have an obligation to obey the law?
That is absurd. They are only illegal lbecause they are seen as immoral, and have been since time immemorial. I'm pretty sure you would consider someone "walking where he wanted" was immoral, if it was over your prone body or over the vegetables in your garden you hoped would tide you over the winter.
AmosMorrison
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by AmosMorrison »

GE Morton wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:49 pm
AmosMorrison wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:31 am
A big example of this is the relation of the world with Africa. Top countries like China, Russia, and America invest in Africa but not the African people. There is something you need to understand here. In Africa, there is gold, jewels, and much more. But in African people, there is poverty on display. Thus, you will never see these countries investing in the people. Rather, they will only invest in the land into which they will be running their multi-million dollar businesses.
Businesses are not charities. They make investments in order to earn a profit. What sort of "investment in people" would you suggest that would earn them a profit?

If Africans et al wish not to be "prey," they have to begin making investments in themselves, so that they can offer the world something of value other than natural resources. No one else has any obligation to do so.
I agree with your point wholeheartedly and moreover, I appreciate the way you have brought the discussion to a good term and understanding. You see, everything in the modern world or the world we are living in presently deals in profits. If you see hospitals, they do not work through charities throughout. I mean, who will earn bucks from business and make sure that ICU works on his money throughout? But if the world works in this way, then we need to act accordingly too. If you consider the prey as innocent, then the predators need to offer a legitimate picture of society.
By investing in people, they can simply lay out some good foundations on which the nation will stand up and then begin to pay you back. By making hospitals and playing fields, you will be investing in two diverse and different aspects of nature. But in general, you will be opening a door to endless profits.
Although the profits will go into the pockets of the rich, the users of the fields and hospitals will feel like an investment done for them and to them. Thus, you can make sure that business flows and remains fluid but people get something to live upon. This basic factor is something that keeps the world different from Africa. Apart from the general ornaments that African nations have to offer, there is not much they can offer their own citizens. Hence, the term ‘prey’ will stay alongside their general names for long and probably for a lifetime.
Thus, there is nothing you can do to change this fact and the fact that top nations in the world and top riches of the world will sort of invade Africa with investments and oust the political power there. With a bunch of supporting work there, an outsider can easily tip off these economics.
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:49 pm
Belindi wrote: January 19th, 2022, 3:03 pm
GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:51 pm
Still no answer. What force is being exerted against them, and by whom?

Also see comment to PC on what constitutes "force."
Elites are defined by their actual or potential superior power within a society. Actual powers include more influence over ideas e.g. established religion and more expensive schools, force by police skewed to favour members of the elite, and inherited wealth and the material advantages it brings.
Er, Belindi, influence, inherited wealth, and material advantages don't constitute force. And if the force exerted by police is to resist or redress (actual) force, such as robbery, stealing, assaults, etc., it is justified. In what way does it favor "the elite"?

You still haven't answered the question.
I can give many examples of how influence, inherited wealth, and material advantages are forces that enable elites to stay in power. Justification has
nothing to do with this historical and sociological fact.
Your description of police power is naively optimistic.
Police forces are corruptible and therein lies the power of a rich elite to make police forces their servants.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 19th, 2022, 10:22 pm

That is absurd. They are only illegal lbecause they are seen as immoral, and have been since time immemorial. I'm pretty sure you would consider someone "walking where he wanted" was immoral, if it was over your prone body or over the vegetables in your garden you hoped would tide you over the winter.
That is incorrect. Hurting someone (by walking on him) or destroying vegetables someone else grew are different (and more serious) crimes than trespassing. They might be termed "assault" or "vandalism". Trespassing is illegal because of private property law, and the notion that individuals can "own" land (and thus control other people's movement) is far from universal, and, in fact, was considered ridiculous in some non-European circles.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 20th, 2022, 5:09 am
I can give many examples of how influence, inherited wealth, and material advantages are forces that enable elites to stay in power.
No, Belindi. Those are not "forces" in any morally relevant sense, or even in the ordinary dictionary sense. That Alfie has a medical degree and thus some influence in his community on medical matters, or that he inherited some money from his grandfather, or that he has the material advantage of good heath, does not not entail or even suggest any "force" exerted against Bruno, or anyone else. You exert force in the morally relevant sense when you act or threaten to inflict some loss or injury upon someone, i.e.,. when you assault someone, burn down their house, steal their property, point a gun at them and demand, "Your money or your life." Alfie is doing none of that.

You're abusing that that word, and confusing yourself.
Police forces are corruptible and therein lies the power of a rich elite to make police forces their servants.
They are that. But most police corruption is motivated by their desire for personal gains, and has nothing to do with any "elites."
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

AmosMorrison wrote: January 20th, 2022, 2:56 am
I agree with your point wholeheartedly and moreover, I appreciate the way you have brought the discussion to a good term and understanding. You see, everything in the modern world or the world we are living in presently deals in profits.
Well, no, "the world" doesn't, though business does.
If you see hospitals, they do not work through charities throughout. I mean, who will earn bucks from business and make sure that ICU works on his money throughout? But if the world works in this way, then we need to act accordingly too. If you consider the prey as innocent, then the predators need to offer a legitimate picture of society.
What would that be?
By investing in people, they can simply lay out some good foundations on which the nation will stand up and then begin to pay you back. By making hospitals and playing fields, you will be investing in two diverse and different aspects of nature. But in general, you will be opening a door to endless profits.
Well, no, you won't. Good health and playing fields don't produce wealth; skills and talents do.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 20th, 2022, 11:12 am
That is incorrect. Hurting someone (by walking on him) or destroying vegetables someone else grew are different (and more serious) crimes than trespassing.
That's true. But your question was, "How is walking where you want to walk a 'moral issue?'" My response was to that question.
Trespassing is illegal because of private property law . . . "
Of course. "Illegal" just means a violation of some law. I think the question you want to pose is whether trespassing is immoral. And of course it is, since it deprives, if only temporarily, an owner of some use of his property. It also represents a threat, because someone who will violate that right will likely have no qualms about violating others.
. . . and the notion that individuals can "own" land (and thus control other people's movement) is far from universal, and, in fact, was considered ridiculous in some non-European circles.
It is universal in all civilized (non-tribal) societies which practice agriculture --- except, of course, the forced collectivizations attempted in Russia, China, and elsewhere with disastrous results (famines, genocide, etc.).
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: January 20th, 2022, 12:58 pm
Belindi wrote: January 20th, 2022, 5:09 am
I can give many examples of how influence, inherited wealth, and material advantages are forces that enable elites to stay in power.
No, Belindi. Those are not "forces" in any morally relevant sense, or even in the ordinary dictionary sense. That Alfie has a medical degree and thus some influence in his community on medical matters, or that he inherited some money from his grandfather, or that he has the material advantage of good heath, does not not entail or even suggest any "force" exerted against Bruno, or anyone else. You exert force in the morally relevant sense when you act or threaten to inflict some loss or injury upon someone, i.e.,. when you assault someone, burn down their house, steal their property, point a gun at them and demand, "Your money or your life." Alfie is doing none of that.

You're abusing that that word, and confusing yourself.
Police forces are corruptible and therein lies the power of a rich elite to make police forces their servants.
They are that. But most police corruption is motivated by their desire for personal gains, and has nothing to do with any "elites."
To the degree that Alfie's medical qualification, his inheritance,and his good health have deprived someone else who lacked any choice in the matter, Alfie is an aggressor. There are political regimes that are biased to favour the successful Alfies.

Regarding corruptible police. I agree corrupt persons are motivated by personal gains, however that is simplistic as everyone is motivated by 'personal gains'. What else!
Professional individuals who have not learned autonomous morality are got at by rewards for corrupt behaviours. Elites seek to control. Immoral elites seek to control via corruption of the weak.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 20th, 2022, 2:47 pm

Of course. "Illegal" just means a violation of some law. I think the question you want to pose is whether trespassing is immoral. And of course it is, since it deprives, if only temporarily, an owner of some use of his property. It also represents a threat, because someone who will violate that right will likely have no qualms about violating others.
Walking through someone's yard "deprives an owner of some use of his property"? Huh? Oh, no! Horrors! Break out the shotguns! Pour salt down the barrels!

I'll grant that trespassing involves breaking the law and violating societal norms. To the extent that we are morally required to obey such norms unless they are egregiously immoral, trespassing may be a (very minor) moral transgression. However, it does not (necessarily) deprive anyone of anything, and even if it did, that would not necessarily make it immoral. After all, the owner of the property (we could say with greater validity) is depriving other people of their right to walk where they will on God's Green Earth. Which right should we honor? I'd suggest it's a practical question: the moral solution is all on the side of the trespasser.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:38 am
To the degree that Alfie's medical qualification, his inheritance,and his good health have deprived someone else who lacked any choice in the matter . . .
Belindi, Alfie's medical qualifications, inheritance, good health don't "deprive" anyone of anything. They do indeed confer some advantages upon Alfie, but that doesn't entail any "deprivation" upon Bruno. Again, you need to apply the non-existence test: If Alfie didn't exist, would Bruno's own qualifications be any better? Would he have any more money? Would he be any healthier? Alfie's existence, with his advantages, has nothing to do with any of those things.

Also, depriving someone of something is only immoral if the person deprived is entitled to whatever he is being denied. I behave immorally if I deprive you of your car by stealing it, but not if the cops deprive a thief of the car he stole by returning it to his victim.
Alfie is an aggressor.
Egads. Here is the definition of "aggression":

1: a forceful action or procedure (such as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master
2: the practice of making attacks or encroachments

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggression

Alfie's qualifications, inheritance, etc., do not constitute and were not obtained via any "forceful action" or attack against anyone. You're indulging in Newspeak again.
There are political regimes that are biased to favour the successful Alfies.
Perhaps, though I can't think of any. The US regime, on the contrary, is strongly biased in favor of "the poor." About 60% of the federal budget is devoted to delivering free lunches to various "disadvantaged" groups, and the "successful" groups are taxed to pay for them. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 70% of the income taxes the government collects; the lowest 50% pay 3.5%.

https://taxfoundation.org/publications/ ... e-tax-data
Professional individuals who have not learned autonomous morality are got at by rewards for corrupt behaviours.
What rewards do cops receive, beyond the bribes they receive from criminals?

Your argument is laced with, and depends upon, eclectic, vague, and simply incorrect definitions of common words, such as "force," "deprive," aggression," etc. I.e., Newspeak, and it is sophistry.
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