Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, A Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir by Dr.Ghoulem Berrah
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 8:55 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 4:32 pm
But the claims are well known.
To you, perhaps. Not, I suspect, to most of your readers.
This is not a proper place to instruct you.
Of course it is.

You're still shirking that intellectual obligation.
It's not my place to instruct anyone whether or not they keep abreast of current psychology.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:02 pm
It's not my place to instruct anyone whether or not they keep abreast of current psychology.
It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make. Usually, a citation or two will satisfy that obligation.
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:19 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:02 pm
It's not my place to instruct anyone whether or not they keep abreast of current psychology.
It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make. Usually, a citation or two will satisfy that obligation.
So it would be if I were tutoring students, or writing an academic thesis. But this forum is neither of these.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:18 am Ecurb wrote regarding The Golden Rule: ↑January 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm
This version is subject to more objections than the original. Should a good-looking woman have sex with everyone who wants to bed her?
The basic freedom and creativity is aimed at oneself and one's survival. You can't help another when you are not also helping yourself. In your particular example the good -looking woman lacks an important survival skill which is a part of human freedom and creativity.

Illustration from The Bible:
New King James Version
So he said to them: “Out of the eater came something to eat, And out of the strong came something sweet.” Now for three days they could not explain the riddle.

It means that it's a condition of being able to help somebody else that you yourself are strong enough to do so. In your example the men who take advantage of the woman are not helping either themselves or the woman, and are unfree as they are subject,not to reason or empathy, but to emotional reaction which is a chemical process.
Obviously I meant my example to simply show that literal interpretation of Pattern's version of the Golden Rule leads to errors, just as literal interpretation of Jesus's does (as GE pointed out). Both need to tempered by common sense. If someone cooks a lobster dinner for you because you love lobster. you "should" cook his or her favorite food for him. If he's allergic to shell fish, lobster doesn't qualify. Some level of abstraction is necessary in both cases.

The answer to Samson's riddle (which Belindi quotes above) is that Samson killed a lion, and bees made a hive in its dead carcass, producing honey. Of course implied meanings can be intuited.

"Empathy" always seems condescending to me. Sympathy suggests, "We're in this together". "Sym" = "together"; "pathos" - "feelings, especially of sadness or pain." Empathy suggests, "I know how you feel. I understand " I can see why psychologists like the word -- it elevates them and their profession. They are professional empaths (supposedly, at least). But if I were in pain and someone said, "I know how you feel." I would be tempted to say, "No you don't. I don't even know how or what I feel myself. How can you know?" GE's quote from Paul Bloom ("We often think of our capacity to experience the suffering of others as the ultimate source of goodness.") is more about sympathy than empathy. Empaths (acc. most defintiions) don't "experience the suffering of others"; they understand it. Sympathetic people don't experience the feelings of others either (how could they?) but they share them. A "sympathy" card basically says, "You're sad, and I'm sad too.". An"empathy card" (thank goodness they don't exist) would say, "You're sad, and I, genius that I am, understand exactly how you feel." (OK, I'm exaggerating a little to make my point.)

I admit that I know little about how "empathy" is used as jargon in psychology or pop psychology. I'm referring to its standard English definition.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:34 pm Take the shark away from the reefs and the reef dies.

Man praying on man is how man gets fitter.
No, man preying on man is how men get sharper teeth (to continue your shark analogy).


Greatest I am wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:34 pm Man not praying on man would be extremely bad for mankind.
How so? Man preying on man makes us more successful predators - those who survive, that is - but nothing more than that.

Your perspective seems to be little more than a justification for 'might makes right'...?
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:19 pm It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make.
No it isn't. We are free to post here as we wish. If you find someone's posts unacceptable in some way, it's up to you what you do about it.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Greatest I am »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:38 pm
Greatest I am wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:34 pm Take the shark away from the reefs and the reef dies.

Man praying on man is how man gets fitter.
No, man preying on man is how men get sharper teeth (to continue your shark analogy).
That is a great benefit is it not?

Fitter is fitter.
Greatest I am wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:34 pm Man not praying on man would be extremely bad for mankind.
How so? Man preying on man makes us more successful predators - those who survive, that is - but nothing more than that.
More fit, yes.

That is what I said above and you did not seem to want to accept that fact as good.
Your perspective seems to be little more than a justification for 'might makes right'...?
Might from above, increases the fitness of the reef.

Challenges increase fitness, if it doe not kill, as you seem to know.

That fitness is why predation can be seen as good.

Regards
DL
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greatest I am wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:34 pm Take the shark away from the reefs and the reef dies.

Man praying on man is how man gets fitter.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:38 pm No, man preying on man is how men get sharper teeth (to continue your shark analogy).
Greatest I am wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:54 pm That is a great benefit is it not?

Fitter is fitter.
Only if 'fitness' means having sharper teeth, and nothing else. The ability to stalk prey, unseen, for example, might also be seen to contribute to 'fitness'. There are many other attributes that might also benefit us, I think. Your perspective seems to ignore this...?
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:42 pm
GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:19 pm It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make.
No it isn't. We are free to post here as we wish. If you find someone's posts unacceptable in some way, it's up to you what you do about it.
It's not an issue of freedom, PC. We're free to post whatever the moderators will tolerate. The issue is abiding by the concept and purpose of the forum, which is reasoned debate of philosophical issues, which entails rational arguments and evidence. That is what distinguishes this forum from Facebook (which consists mainly of roobs blurting uninformed opinions).
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by EricPH »

Greatest I am wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:54 pm
Might from above, increases the fitness of the reef.

Challenges increase fitness, if it doe not kill, as you seem to know.

We allow a child to die from starvation, abject poverty and preventable disease ever five seconds. That is around a Holocaust every year.

About eight hundred million people go to bed hungry.

And we allow this to happen. This shows what an uncaring society we live in.

That fitness is why predation can be seen as good.
Evolution and fitness have a lot to answer for.
Ecurb
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Ecurb »

Greatest I am wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:54 pm

Might from above, increases the fitness of the reef.

Challenges increase fitness, if it doe not kill, as you seem to know.

That fitness is why predation can be seen as good.

Regards
DL
Yet in Darwinian terms the predatory nations seem to be LESS fit than those beong preyed upon. Most rich nations have reached zero population growth; the birth rates in Africa and other third world countries are far higher, and the population increases (even given lower life expectancies) far more rapid. Perhaps predation (it seems) LOWERS fitness, and being preyed upon INCREASES it.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Good_Egg »

EricPH wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:24 pm We allow a child to die from starvation, abject poverty and preventable disease ever five seconds. That is around a Holocaust every year.

About eight hundred million people go to bed hungry.

And we allow this to happen. This shows what an uncaring society we live in.
Is "an uncaring society" a society of uncaring people ? Are you an uncaring person because there are many good causes which you choose not to donate to while living your Western lifestyle ?

Or is "an uncaring society" one that somehow prevents the compassion of all the many caring individual people from being converted into effective action ? How exactly is the structure of society impeding you in your desire to do good works ?

Which is it ?
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:09 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:42 pm
GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:19 pm It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make.
No it isn't. We are free to post here as we wish. If you find someone's posts unacceptable in some way, it's up to you what you do about it.
It's not an issue of freedom, PC. We're free to post whatever the moderators will tolerate. The issue is abiding by the concept and purpose of the forum, which is reasoned debate of philosophical issues, which entails rational arguments and evidence. That is what distinguishes this forum from Facebook (which consists mainly of roobs blurting uninformed opinions).
But you don't need me to provide evidence that there once were dinosaurs, that glaciers are melting, that there are fewer species than ten years ago,that species evolved by natural selection, etc. such claims are common knowledge.

However if GEM will remind me what I claimed that he requires evidence for I will oblige.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 9:19 pm It is your place to provide arguments and evidence for any claims you make.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 12:42 pm No it isn't. We are free to post here as we wish. If you find someone's posts unacceptable in some way, it's up to you what you do about it.
GE Morton wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:09 pm It's not an issue of freedom, PC. We're free to post whatever the moderators will tolerate. The issue is abiding by the concept and purpose of the forum, which is reasoned debate of philosophical issues, which entails rational arguments and evidence. That is what distinguishes this forum from Facebook (which consists mainly of roobs blurting uninformed opinions).
I'm not advocating anarchy, or even Libertarian freedom from coercion - 😋 - I'm just objecting to this 'burden of proof' thing. If I'm discussing something with you, I make my case, as you do. If my case should lack proof, it weakens my case, and maybe your argument comes out the stronger. It's my choice how well I support my case, but there is no 'burden'.

I find "You said it, so you must offer proof" to resemble a playground chant, often used to distract attention from the argument itself. It's a bugbear of mine.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 4th, 2022, 6:13 am
However if GEM will remind me what I claimed that he requires evidence for I will oblige.
It was the following claim: "Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively."
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