Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, A Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir by Dr.Ghoulem Berrah
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: January 30th, 2022, 5:32 pm
Child- centred education is a theory of education with which I agree. Indeed it's ideal when each child has her education tailored to suit her. This is done to the utmost ability of every good teacher.
Who is to decide what suits her, her parents (and the kid herself), or school bureaucrats?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Ecurb wrote: January 28th, 2022, 3:03 pm
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
GE Morton wrote: January 29th, 2022, 2:29 pm I think we've covered this before. The trouble with the Golden Rule is that "what you would have others do unto you" is subjective, and I would not want a masochist to do unto me what he would have me do unto him. Kant's Categorical Imperative aims at the same point, but avoids that problem.
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 30th, 2022, 8:15 am The Golden Rule makes the point well, but its focus is mistaken. The real Golden Rule asks that one will treat others as they would wish to be treated. After all, what you might find to be beneficial treatment might be insufferably unpleasant to someone else.
Ecurb wrote: January 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm This version is subject to more objections than the original. Should a good-looking woman have sex with everyone who wants to bed her?
This is the grossest deliberate misunderstanding I've seen for a very long time. No-one would mistake my words to mean what you have suggested, I don't think.
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Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 31st, 2022, 1:32 pm
Ecurb wrote: January 28th, 2022, 3:03 pm
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
GE Morton wrote: January 29th, 2022, 2:29 pm I think we've covered this before. The trouble with the Golden Rule is that "what you would have others do unto you" is subjective, and I would not want a masochist to do unto me what he would have me do unto him. Kant's Categorical Imperative aims at the same point, but avoids that problem.
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 30th, 2022, 8:15 am The Golden Rule makes the point well, but its focus is mistaken. The real Golden Rule asks that one will treat others as they would wish to be treated. After all, what you might find to be beneficial treatment might be insufferably unpleasant to someone else.
Ecurb wrote: January 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm This version is subject to more objections than the original. Should a good-looking woman have sex with everyone who wants to bed her?
This is the grossest deliberate misunderstanding I've seen for a very long time. No-one would mistake my words to mean what you have suggested, I don't think.
You're right, Pattern-chaser. The Golden Rule implies more than a superficial touchy- feely involvement in another's welfare. The Golden Rule involves the application of state of the art knowledge and time-consuming attention to another's wellbeing.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 31st, 2022, 1:32 pm
Ecurb wrote: January 28th, 2022, 3:03 pm
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
GE Morton wrote: January 29th, 2022, 2:29 pm I think we've covered this before. The trouble with the Golden Rule is that "what you would have others do unto you" is subjective, and I would not want a masochist to do unto me what he would have me do unto him. Kant's Categorical Imperative aims at the same point, but avoids that problem.
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 30th, 2022, 8:15 am The Golden Rule makes the point well, but its focus is mistaken. The real Golden Rule asks that one will treat others as they would wish to be treated. After all, what you might find to be beneficial treatment might be insufferably unpleasant to someone else.
Ecurb wrote: January 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm This version is subject to more objections than the original. Should a good-looking woman have sex with everyone who wants to bed her?
This is the grossest deliberate misunderstanding I've seen for a very long time. No-one would mistake my words to mean what you have suggested, I don't think.
I hope that your use of "they" was confusing and was read as "the person applying the Rule" as opposed to the person to whom the Rule is being applied.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by EricPH »

We should apply the golden rule for the benefit of the recipient. Should I treat every woman in the same way I treat my wife?
Should I treat my wife in the same way as I treat my children or parents?
If I want the freedom to be a Catholic, then others should also have the freedom to be a Muslim, atheist, Hindu etc.

We ignore the golden rule when it comes to rich countries exploiting poor countries. If poor countries could pay the same hourly rate as rich countries, then we would not be able to afford our luxuries. The rich would no longer feel rich.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 30th, 2022, 8:15 am The Golden Rule makes the point well, but its focus is mistaken. The real Golden Rule asks that one will treat others as they would wish to be treated. After all, what you might find to be beneficial treatment might be insufferably unpleasant to someone else.
...
LuckyR wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:17 pm I hope that your use of "they" was confusing and was read as "the person applying the Rule" as opposed to the person to whom the Rule is being applied.
EricPH wrote: February 1st, 2022, 9:12 pm We should apply the golden rule for the benefit of the recipient.
Exactly. If the recipient was distressed, most people in that situation would appreciate a hug, and "C'mon now, it can't be so bad", wouldn't they? That would describe the conventional expression of the Golden Rule. But, if the recipient had sensory issues, and was unable to tolerate physical touching, your hug would distress them more. To meet the spirit of the Rule, we should treat the recipient as the recipient would like to be treated, not as the helper would like to be treated in the recipient's situation.

Does that answer your question, LuckyR?
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Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:09 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 30th, 2022, 8:15 am The Golden Rule makes the point well, but its focus is mistaken. The real Golden Rule asks that one will treat others as they would wish to be treated. After all, what you might find to be beneficial treatment might be insufferably unpleasant to someone else.
...
LuckyR wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:17 pm I hope that your use of "they" was confusing and was read as "the person applying the Rule" as opposed to the person to whom the Rule is being applied.
EricPH wrote: February 1st, 2022, 9:12 pm We should apply the golden rule for the benefit of the recipient.
Exactly. If the recipient was distressed, most people in that situation would appreciate a hug, and "C'mon now, it can't be so bad", wouldn't they? That would describe the conventional expression of the Golden Rule. But, if the recipient had sensory issues, and was unable to tolerate physical touching, your hug would distress them more. To meet the spirit of the Rule, we should treat the recipient as the recipient would like to be treated, not as the helper would like to be treated in the recipient's situation.

Does that answer your question, LuckyR?
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning. Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

Ecurb wrote regarding The Golden Rule: ↑January 30th, 2022, 1:41 pm
This version is subject to more objections than the original. Should a good-looking woman have sex with everyone who wants to bed her?
The basic freedom and creativity is aimed at oneself and one's survival. You can't help another when you are not also helping yourself. In your particular example the good -looking woman lacks an important survival skill which is a part of human freedom and creativity.

Illustration from The Bible:
New King James Version
So he said to them: “Out of the eater came something to eat, And out of the strong came something sweet.” Now for three days they could not explain the riddle.

It means that it's a condition of being able to help somebody else that you yourself are strong enough to do so. In your example the men who take advantage of the woman are not helping either themselves or the woman, and are unfree as they are subject,not to reason or empathy, but to emotional reaction which is a chemical process.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:15 am
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning.
Not according to any definition of those terms I know of.
Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
Evidence?
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 2:09 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:15 am
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning.
Not according to any definition of those terms I know of.
Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
Evidence?
You can google for evidence of empathy and how to teach it and how to learn it.

You can google for discussions of how empathy is a variety of reasoning.
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Greatest I am »

Take the shark away from the reefs and the reef dies.

Man praying on man is how man gets fitter.

Man not praying on man would be extremely bad for mankind.

Regards
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GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 2:57 pm
GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 2:09 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:15 am
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning.
Not according to any definition of those terms I know of.
Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
Evidence?
You can google for evidence of empathy and how to teach it and how to learn it.

You can google for discussions of how empathy is a variety of reasoning.
Oooh, bad form, Belindi. When you make a claim the burden is upon you to cite supporting evidence. Asking a challenger to search for it is evasive, a shirking of that obligation.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:15 am
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning. Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
BTW, some interesting arguments have been made against empathy:

"We often think of our capacity to experience the suffering of others as the ultimate source of goodness. Many of our wisest policy-makers, activists, scientists, and philosophers agree that the only problem with empathy is that we don’t have enough of it.

"Nothing could be farther from the truth, argues Yale researcher Paul Bloom. In AGAINST EMPATHY, Bloom reveals empathy to be one of the leading motivators of inequality and immorality in society. Far from helping us to improve the lives of others, empathy is a capricious and irrational emotion that appeals to our narrow prejudices. It muddles our judgment and, ironically, often leads to cruelty. We are at our best when we are smart enough not to rely on it, but to draw instead upon a more distanced compassion.

Basing his argument on groundbreaking scientific findings, Bloom makes the case that some of the worst decisions made by individuals and nations—who to give money to, when to go to war, how to respond to climate change, and who to imprison—are too often motivated by honest, yet misplaced, emotions. With precision and wit, he demonstrates how empathy distorts our judgment in every aspect of our lives, from philanthropy and charity to the justice system; from medical care and education to parenting and marriage. Without empathy, Bloom insists, our decisions would be clearer, fairer, and—yes—ultimately more moral."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CY2LCZI/
Belindi
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by Belindi »

GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 3:47 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 2:57 pm
GE Morton wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 2:09 pm
Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 7:15 am
There you have empathy. Empathy is a sort of intelligence and a sort of reasoning.
Not according to any definition of those terms I know of.
Empathy can be taught both intellectually and affectively.
Evidence?
You can google for evidence of empathy and how to teach it and how to learn it.

You can google for discussions of how empathy is a variety of reasoning.
Oooh, bad form, Belindi. When you make a claim the burden is upon you to cite supporting evidence. Asking a challenger to search for it is evasive, a shirking of that obligation.
But the claims are well known. This is not a proper place to instruct you.
GE Morton
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Re: Rich countries are the Predators and Poor countries are the Prey, Do you agree?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 4:32 pm
But the claims are well known.
To you, perhaps. Not, I suspect, to most of your readers.
This is not a proper place to instruct you.
Of course it is.

You're still shirking that intellectual obligation.
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