Can we trust nobody?

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anonymous66
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by anonymous66 »

Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:01 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 7th, 2022, 9:49 pm My takeaway from the first 25 pages. Trusting others is necessary in order to work and succeed together, but we must take care to trust our instincts (listen to what "out gut" is telling us about other people) and/or confront others when necessary (avoiding conflict also causes problems)

I'm thinking about the story of Danny and Johnathon (page 7 in the book) - it looked like Danny was sabotaging the company, but Johnathon was able to confront him - they were able to talk about the problem and then create a new business plan that was beneficial for both parties.
The story you mentioned is about a junior confronting a senior. Luckily the senior fellow chose to listen to what his junior had to say, and he accepted the need to change. Seemingly the junior fellow was lucky. But how many seniors in today's business world will tolerate a junior's confrontation? And a change based on such incident will be even more rare. OTOH, how many employees will find the courage to confront their employer?
I'm with the author on this one. It may be hard, and it does carry risks, but sometimes confrontation is necessary. Considering the options that Johnathon had at his disposal (I suppose he could have just left - but where would that have left him?) and the outcome, it seems to me that Johnathon made the right choice.
anonymous66
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by anonymous66 »

Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:09 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 9th, 2022, 3:07 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 7th, 2022, 9:49 pm My takeaway from the first 25 pages. Trusting others is necessary in order to work and succeed together, but we must take care to trust our instincts (listen to what "out gut" is telling us about other people) and/or confront others when necessary (avoiding conflict also causes problems)

I'm thinking about the story of Danny and Johnathon (page 7 in the book) - it looked like Danny was sabotaging the company, but Johnathon was able to confront him - they were able to talk about the problem and then create a new business plan that was beneficial for both parties.
The author also has this to say (p.44)
"Trusting someone before they have earned it is unwise, but assuming that everyone we meet is untrustworthy is needlessly cynical. So, what's the appropriate strategy? Good BEQ suggests we simply resist forming an opinion about a person's character or personality, until we see how they act over time, and in different circumstances. This won't be easy at first It requires living with the anxiety of suspending judgment instead of relaxing into a false sense of rapport and trust."
Seemingly the author has contradicted himself. First he tells assuming all that we meet as untrustworthy is cynical. But then he tells that good BEQ suggests resisiting forming an opinion about people until we study them for some time. So in other words the latter part suggests not to trust people until we get to know them well. So we should not trust anyone that we do not know. And I see a practical issue in the latter statement. For how long should we study a person in order to form an opinion on him or build some trust on him?
My thoughts are similar gad-fly's. The way the book is written - the author assumes that he is writing to people who do trust others as a matter of course (you can't be successful in business if you don't put at least some trust in others). The author is writing to people who do trust - that's why they need to be warned - sometimes his target audience trusts too quickly and get burned (again I'm thinking about the story from Chapter 3 - Veronica and Tony (p.11)- the problem was that Veronica put too much trust in Tony even though she had some "gut feelings" that should have been warning signs). The context I see is when our "gut" tells us a particular person may be a problem - that's when "resisting forming an opinion" comes into play (and/or calling some of the people Tony suggested were people he had worked with in the past). The author doesn't ever suggest it's good idea to trust "nobody" (after all the author suggests that Veronica could/should have trusted the people she should have called in order to vet Tony... and the author suggests that Johanthon was correct in continuing to trust Danny after Johanthon confronted him).
Last edited by anonymous66 on January 21st, 2022, 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Sushan
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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gad-fly
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Why fixated on100%? In trust? 50% is necessary, sufficient, and normal. live and survive with the benefit of reasonable doubt.
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Yeah, I know. I was taking that into account. When I said "predictable", I did not mean know for certain, I allowed for the possibility of being wrong a minority of the time. I'm OK with that.
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LuckyR
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by LuckyR »

gad-fly wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:49 pm
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Why fixated on100%? In trust? 50% is necessary, sufficient, and normal. live and survive with the benefit of reasonable doubt.
What did you think of my guidelines?
"As usual... it depends."
gad-fly
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by gad-fly »

LuckyR wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 4:39 am
gad-fly wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:49 pm
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Why fixated on100%? In trust? 50% is necessary, sufficient, and normal. live and survive with the benefit of reasonable doubt.
What did you think of my guidelines?

Sorry, but your guideline is so wooly as to be meaningless. people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation? you have missed '"surprise", "shock". and "abnormal". Your emphasis on money is too overweighed. What about matter of life and death of yourself and that of your loved ones? Miracle drug to cure cancer?
Essentially, Trust should be exercised as a matter of degree, not 100% as Sushan has alleged. Trust is also reaction based on your own opinion. My opinion is predictable? To a degree, yes, but I often surprise myself.
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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gad-fly wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 4:39 am
gad-fly wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:49 pm
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am

But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Why fixated on100%? In trust? 50% is necessary, sufficient, and normal. live and survive with the benefit of reasonable doubt.
What did you think of my guidelines?

Sorry, but your guideline is so wooly as to be meaningless. people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation? you have missed '"surprise", "shock". and "abnormal". Your emphasis on money is too overweighed. What about matter of life and death of yourself and that of your loved ones? Miracle drug to cure cancer?
Essentially, Trust should be exercised as a matter of degree, not 100% as Sushan has alleged. Trust is also reaction based on your own opinion. My opinion is predictable? To a degree, yes, but I often surprise myself.
Definitely wooly... that's why they're guidelines, not universal truths (I used the wording "my rule" because they have served me very well, but it would be unreasonable to assume that others have my life experience and/or have learned as much from their's as I have from mine). The nature of the subject matter is inherently wooly, though so various folks will have variable outcomes.

As to money, there's nothing magical about it, it just typically supplies the motivation in cases where one doesn't know the players very well.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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gad-fly wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:33 pm
Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:09 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 9th, 2022, 3:07 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 7th, 2022, 9:49 pm My takeaway from the first 25 pages. Trusting others is necessary in order to work and succeed together, but we must take care to trust our instincts (listen to what "out gut" is telling us about other people) and/or confront others when necessary (avoiding conflict also causes problems)

I'm thinking about the story of Danny and Johnathon (page 7 in the book) - it looked like Danny was sabotaging the company, but Johnathon was able to confront him - they were able to talk about the problem and then create a new business plan that was beneficial for both parties.
The author also has this to say (p.44)
"Trusting someone before they have earned it is unwise, but assuming that everyone we meet is untrustworthy is needlessly cynical. So, what's the appropriate strategy? Good BEQ suggests we simply resist forming an opinion about a person's character or personality, until we see how they act over time, and in different circumstances. This won't be easy at first It requires living with the anxiety of suspending judgment instead of relaxing into a false sense of rapport and trust."
Seemingly the author has contradicted himself. First he tells assuming all that we meet as untrustworthy is cynical. But then he tells that good BEQ suggests resisiting forming an opinion about people until we study them for some time. So in other words the latter part suggests not to trust people until we get to know them well. So we should not trust anyone that we do not know. And I see a practical issue in the latter statement. For how long should we study a person in order to form an opinion on him or build some trust on him?
No. He is not contradicting himself. He is talking common sense, instead of inviting you to take a leap of faith. Be cautious, and be wary, says he. Keep an open mind. Take time to study. Don't assume the worst, as doing so is cynical. How long should we study? This is what the book is about. Assume worse, assume waryjump inaskin
Well, you too have pointed out my question, how long should we study someone before we trust them? Yes, the author does not say to trust anyone at once, but not to assume the worst either. So where should our fears or trust should actually lie? It is quite confusing.
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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QuestionAll+Nothing wrote: January 20th, 2022, 3:01 am Trust is Given, its never taken you must be willing to trust and submit even if its by force. If someone tells you to drink some water that unknowingly is poisoned, yet says if you don’t I will harm you through death. Then you are still giving him your trust but through other means (Fear). The concept of nobody from etymology is someone of non-importance but I don’t know if the question is about others or anyone meaning yourself. Yet you will always trust somebody even if it’s yourself. Trust is an exchange for loyalty on non loyalty.
I do not get you. How can it become trust when you are forced to do something? You will trust when someone nicely asks you to drink a glass of poisonous water, but you will become highly suspicious and frightened if someone threatened you to drink a glass of clean water. We tend to trust others depending on the way that the facts are presented.
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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Neil Wallace wrote: January 20th, 2022, 2:00 pm
Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:45 pm= It will never think that you will hit it the next moment. But similarly if you give food to a stranger for free, for no reason, he will definitely have suspicious thoughts about your motives.
A naive child is essentially like a dog - zero distrust particularly after a benefit. When concepts come in they can massively distort true probability. They are trying to poison me with the free sandwich because I read about such a case on a news website in 1974. Reason is to try and use facts to get more accurate predictive models of reality.
I agree. It is easy to trust others when you are less experienced and less knowledgeable. Our experience and knowledge teach us to be cautious. But sometimes we can be over-protective and distrust people who we should trust. I am not sure whether anyone will be able to propose a 100% fool-proof method to solve this issue.
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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anonymous66 wrote: January 20th, 2022, 9:30 pm
Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:01 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 7th, 2022, 9:49 pm My takeaway from the first 25 pages. Trusting others is necessary in order to work and succeed together, but we must take care to trust our instincts (listen to what "out gut" is telling us about other people) and/or confront others when necessary (avoiding conflict also causes problems)

I'm thinking about the story of Danny and Johnathon (page 7 in the book) - it looked like Danny was sabotaging the company, but Johnathon was able to confront him - they were able to talk about the problem and then create a new business plan that was beneficial for both parties.
The story you mentioned is about a junior confronting a senior. Luckily the senior fellow chose to listen to what his junior had to say, and he accepted the need to change. Seemingly the junior fellow was lucky. But how many seniors in today's business world will tolerate a junior's confrontation? And a change based on such incident will be even more rare. OTOH, how many employees will find the courage to confront their employer?
I'm with the author on this one. It may be hard, and it does carry risks, but sometimes confrontation is necessary. Considering the options that Johnathon had at his disposal (I suppose he could have just left - but where would that have left him?) and the outcome, it seems to me that Johnathon made the right choice.
In this case there were no options for Jonathan. Yes, he could leave, but it was not a feasible option with his financial situation. I would simply say, he was under pressure. He released that pressure by confronting his senior. Luckily his senior gave the confrontation some thought and understood his mistakes. So it made Jonathan's move the correct one. But if the results were different, then can we still say he was correct?
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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anonymous66 wrote: January 20th, 2022, 10:20 pm
Sushan wrote: January 19th, 2022, 1:09 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 9th, 2022, 3:07 pm
anonymous66 wrote: January 7th, 2022, 9:49 pm My takeaway from the first 25 pages. Trusting others is necessary in order to work and succeed together, but we must take care to trust our instincts (listen to what "out gut" is telling us about other people) and/or confront others when necessary (avoiding conflict also causes problems)

I'm thinking about the story of Danny and Johnathon (page 7 in the book) - it looked like Danny was sabotaging the company, but Johnathon was able to confront him - they were able to talk about the problem and then create a new business plan that was beneficial for both parties.
The author also has this to say (p.44)
"Trusting someone before they have earned it is unwise, but assuming that everyone we meet is untrustworthy is needlessly cynical. So, what's the appropriate strategy? Good BEQ suggests we simply resist forming an opinion about a person's character or personality, until we see how they act over time, and in different circumstances. This won't be easy at first It requires living with the anxiety of suspending judgment instead of relaxing into a false sense of rapport and trust."
Seemingly the author has contradicted himself. First he tells assuming all that we meet as untrustworthy is cynical. But then he tells that good BEQ suggests resisiting forming an opinion about people until we study them for some time. So in other words the latter part suggests not to trust people until we get to know them well. So we should not trust anyone that we do not know. And I see a practical issue in the latter statement. For how long should we study a person in order to form an opinion on him or build some trust on him?
My thoughts are similar gad-fly's. The way the book is written - the author assumes that he is writing to people who do trust others as a matter of course (you can't be successful in business if you don't put at least some trust in others). The author is writing to people who do trust - that's why they need to be warned - sometimes his target audience trusts too quickly and get burned (again I'm thinking about the story from Chapter 3 - Veronica and Tony (p.11)- the problem was that Veronica put too much trust in Tony even though she had some "gut feelings" that should have been warning signs). The context I see is when our "gut" tells us a particular person may be a problem - that's when "resisting forming an opinion" comes into play (and/or calling some of the people Tony suggested were people he had worked with in the past). The author doesn't ever suggest it's good idea to trust "nobody" (after all the author suggests that Veronica could/should have trusted the people she should have called in order to vet Tony... and the author suggests that Johanthon was correct in continuing to trust Danny after Johanthon confronted him).
Veronica acted depending on the facts that she had on her hands. Though her 'gut' said her to be cautious, apparently there was nothing bad on Tony. It is true that ultimately her 'gut feelings' became correct. But what if Tony was a legitimate guy? Then Veronica would have never listened to her 'gut feelings' anymore thinking that it was merely out of anxiety.

And also, it is easy to analyze a situation after everything happened and point out the mistakes and give suggestions. But it is quite different when you are actually facing it, with no idea about the future.
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Sushan
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

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gad-fly wrote: January 21st, 2022, 2:49 pm
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:14 am
LuckyR wrote: January 10th, 2022, 4:17 am My rule is that people's behavior is predictable if you understand their motivation. Thus for folks I know well, it is predictable under which circumstances they can be trusted. For strangers or those I don't know well, my rule is: trust but verify if the issue does not involve money, distrust if it does.
But here the issue is we are not being able to know the motive, but only to guess it. This guess has a higher chance of being correct when we know the person. Still that probability is below 100% since we work with humans, who can very well decieve others.
Why fixated on100%? In trust? 50% is necessary, sufficient, and normal. live and survive with the benefit of reasonable doubt.
Yes, we can do that. And we can survive without 100%. But that all depends on the results of a wrong choice, trusting a wrong person at a wrong time. If that one moment will determine whether you live or not, then anyone would wish for a 100%.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Neil Wallace
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Re: Can we trust nobody?

Post by Neil Wallace »

Sushan wrote: January 25th, 2022, 1:01 pm sometimes we can be over-protective and distrust people who we should trust. I am not sure whether anyone will be able to propose a 100% fool-proof method to solve this issue.
When we say "I trust you" to someone. There are 2 components to this contract
a) I ascribe high probability you will do x
b) an emotional component were one says I wil theoretically allow you to do me some harm, however if you do this harm retribution will follow - even if it is just me becoming morally disappointed in you.

Hence there may be times where it is more prudent to say "I do not wish for your gift of trust, you cannot rely on me to do x as I do not wish to."

Trust has a mutual contractual element which further complicates matters.
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