Free will, Do we have it?

Use this forum to discuss the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Free Will, Do You Have It? by Albertus Kral
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 4693
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Free will, Do we have it?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 10:12 pm Do we have free will, or not?
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:00 pm It appears to us that we have free will. Beyond that, I can't see any definite conclusions that we might draw.
Sushan wrote: February 25th, 2022, 7:16 am Yes, it only appears to us that we are having free will. But when we try to do something we see all the barriers and hindrances that we have to overcome, hence questioning the possession of free will.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 26th, 2022, 11:46 am You seem to think that we can - i.e. we are able to - overcome the difficulties of finding out whether we have free will or not? And, having overcome these difficulties, you seem to be assuming that we should? It seems to me that the difficulties might be insuperable, and maybe also that there is no good reason to enquire further even if we can. We are too intimately involved in this question to carry out investigations with sufficient rigour and clarity?
LuckyR wrote: February 26th, 2022, 1:37 pm Here's what we know about the the concept of Free Will:

1) All objective evidence is consistent with the presence of Free Will.

2) Yet Free Will is unproven.

3) Free Will likely cannot be proven.

4) Free Will can be disproven, but has not yet been.

5) Logical alternatives to Free Will can and have been made. Some of them can be proven, but none of them have been.
Fair enough. I might quibble about your #1, as I don't think there is much in the way of objective evidence when we consider free will. But what you say here makes sense to me.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Luzephyr
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: February 27th, 2022, 3:45 am

Re: Free will, Do we have it?

Post by Luzephyr »

'Choice' is just the feeling of one will being stronger than multiple competing wills. The feeling of 'choosing' one particular desire over the other possible ones is nothing more than the dominance of the stronger will over the weaker wills which are constantly contending against each other for supremacy within one's own being.

Therefore I equate the word 'free' not with choice - choice is an illusion - but with the fact that one will is 'master' over the other ones, and is subject to no will above itself - the will of another human being, for instance, has no power over itself. That I call a free will; otherwise the phrase 'free will' has no truth or meaning to it.

But it is not just my own peculiar use of the word. If you unpack the meaning of the word 'free' or 'freeman' you will find that it is always follows my sense of the word, and the equating of 'freedom' of the will with mere choice is a relatively late development of modern times. The idolatry of human 'choice' in general is no doubt the product of the consumer culture of modern times, and philosophies centered around that are a reflection and justification of the value system that would have to exist in order for the consumerist mind-set to be such a dominant force in human culture.

I say that 'choice' only exists if it is interpreted as the consciousness of one will being stronger and therefore defeating all the other desires. There is no one inside of your head picking and choosing between different wills and desires; that is a figment or your imagination. It is not natural for man to be so fixated on his internal states of mind as to contemplate the nature of his will.

Perhaps the human mind was not designed to be so introspective, and therefore when the consciousness became overly focused on the internal states of the mind, the mind couldn't make sense of much of it, and so personfied the wills and desires, which gave rise to the illusion of a 'chooser' within one's head that decides which will is to be the winner, and which desires are to be rejected. I say the strongest will always wins, and the weaker ones always lose.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6540
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will, Do we have it?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 27th, 2022, 9:11 am
Sushan wrote: February 2nd, 2022, 10:12 pm Do we have free will, or not?
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:00 pm It appears to us that we have free will. Beyond that, I can't see any definite conclusions that we might draw.
Sushan wrote: February 25th, 2022, 7:16 am Yes, it only appears to us that we are having free will. But when we try to do something we see all the barriers and hindrances that we have to overcome, hence questioning the possession of free will.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 26th, 2022, 11:46 am You seem to think that we can - i.e. we are able to - overcome the difficulties of finding out whether we have free will or not? And, having overcome these difficulties, you seem to be assuming that we should? It seems to me that the difficulties might be insuperable, and maybe also that there is no good reason to enquire further even if we can. We are too intimately involved in this question to carry out investigations with sufficient rigour and clarity?
LuckyR wrote: February 26th, 2022, 1:37 pm Here's what we know about the the concept of Free Will:

1) All objective evidence is consistent with the presence of Free Will.

2) Yet Free Will is unproven.

3) Free Will likely cannot be proven.

4) Free Will can be disproven, but has not yet been.

5) Logical alternatives to Free Will can and have been made. Some of them can be proven, but none of them have been.
Fair enough. I might quibble about your #1, as I don't think there is much in the way of objective evidence when we consider free will. But what you say here makes sense to me.
Oh, I never said there is evidence OF Free Will, I said "all objective evidence is consistent WITH... Free Will".
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 4693
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Free will, Do we have it?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: February 27th, 2022, 4:16 pm Oh, I never said there is evidence OF Free Will, I said "all objective evidence is consistent WITH... Free Will".
Oops, I missed that. Sorry. It seems we are in complete agreement, then. 🙂
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Post Reply

Return to “Free Will, Do You Have It? by Albertus Kral”

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021