What is 'Free will'?

Use this forum to discuss the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Free Will, Do You Have It? by Albertus Kral
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LuckyR
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

Post by LuckyR »

Elephant wrote: February 27th, 2022, 7:26 pm
Sushan wrote: February 13th, 2022, 4:29 am So whether there is a free will or not, it does not care, because it is already enjoying it. But humans cannot simply do so, and that is why we are keen about the topic. So ultimately it should be free will = human will.
I mean human will is the psychological will we're born with. Desires are innate in us -- so this must be one of the driving force in the will. I have a desire to climb a mountain, so my attempts at doing so represent my will.
Firstly, contrary to what most logicians and economists believe, folks routinely don't choose to act on their desires (nor act in their best financial interests).

Secondly, did YOU have the desire or did the state of your brain when the idea of mountains was brought up force you to have a desire to climb mountains?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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LuckyR wrote: February 28th, 2022, 1:46 am
Firstly, contrary to what most logicians and economists believe, folks routinely don't choose to act on their desires (nor act in their best financial interests).
Sure. But how does that negate what I said that desires are innate in us? And that if I act on this desire, then that's my will to act on that desire. You just said yourself, "folks routinely don't choose to act on their desires" -- so they have desires, they just don't act on it.
LuckyR wrote: February 28th, 2022, 1:46 amSecondly, did YOU have the desire or did the state of your brain when the idea of mountains was brought up force you to have a desire to climb mountains?
Are you telling me that images of a mountain brought this desire in me? So, how does the mountain have any effect in me if I don't have the capacity to develop desires, let alone contain this desire in me?
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LuckyR
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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Elephant wrote: March 1st, 2022, 10:45 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 28th, 2022, 1:46 am
Firstly, contrary to what most logicians and economists believe, folks routinely don't choose to act on their desires (nor act in their best financial interests).
Sure. But how does that negate what I said that desires are innate in us? And that if I act on this desire, then that's my will to act on that desire. You just said yourself, "folks routinely don't choose to act on their desires" -- so they have desires, they just don't act on it.
LuckyR wrote: February 28th, 2022, 1:46 amSecondly, did YOU have the desire or did the state of your brain when the idea of mountains was brought up force you to have a desire to climb mountains?
Are you telling me that images of a mountain brought this desire in me? So, how does the mountain have any effect in me if I don't have the capacity to develop desires, let alone contain this desire in me?
I guess I took your original description of the role of desires as determining choices (which they don't, necessarily. It seems you agree and I don't have a further comment on that.

As to the mountains, I wasn't addressing them, rather the theory that Determinists have that various instantaneous brain-states always lead to certain thoughts and therefore "choices", that are not choices at all.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 2:01 am
As to the mountains, I wasn't addressing them, rather the theory that Determinists have that various instantaneous brain-states always lead to certain thoughts and therefore "choices", that are not choices at all.
I don't know man. Do you think the Bering Strait theory of migration of stone age humans between two continents was determined? Or they thought that the receding waters gave them the chance which they took at the moment when it was possible?
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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Elephant wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 11:40 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 2:01 am
As to the mountains, I wasn't addressing them, rather the theory that Determinists have that various instantaneous brain-states always lead to certain thoughts and therefore "choices", that are not choices at all.
I don't know man. Do you think the Bering Strait theory of migration of stone age humans between two continents was determined? Or they thought that the receding waters gave them the chance which they took at the moment when it was possible?
Me? Nope, not a Determinist.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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LuckyR wrote: March 3rd, 2022, 2:57 am
Me? Nope, not a Determinist.
Okay then. We're on the same page.
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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How can will be free without determined processes? Without them a will can't exist in the first place. The free will is a determined process.
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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Whether pragmatism has any bearing on humans over the ants is debatable. The debate starts with the assumption that the spirit of revenge and the thought of revenge are two different things. From here and maybe so we might have the definition of sin. I might stablish that a lion has no thought process, but it has instinct. This “present” evolved capacity is the mechanism that enable the lion to defeat the hyenas. It is obvious that human thought can train instinct to become a polished spirit. A polished spirit could make war more “human.” As we choose one to many, many to one, one to one or one is, it is “all” clearer. Can we ever say human and predator in a sentence? It takes free will.
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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The Beast wrote: April 1st, 2022, 10:13 am Whether pragmatism has any bearing on humans over the ants is debatable. The debate starts with the assumption that the spirit of revenge and the thought of revenge are two different things. From here and maybe so we might have the definition of sin. I might stablish that a lion has no thought process, but it has instinct. This “present” evolved capacity is the mechanism that enable the lion to defeat the hyenas. It is obvious that human thought can train instinct to become a polished spirit. A polished spirit could make war more “human.” As we choose one to many, many to one, one to one or one is, it is “all” clearer. Can we ever say human and predator in a sentence? It takes free will.
"Can we ever say human and predator in a sentence?" Yes! You just did in your question about them.

" A polished spirit could make war more “human.” As we choose one to many, many to one, one to one or one is, it is “all” clearer"

You mean a "fair" war in the sense without bringing modern tech into the play? Are the "ones" you mention people?

"The debate starts with the assumption that the spirit of revenge and the thought of revenge are two different things. From here and maybe so we might have the definition of sin. I might stablish that a lion has no thought process, but it has instinct. "

Not sure if the debate starts with this assumption. Aren't the spirit of revenge and the thought of revenge different things? You can feel to take revenge without thinking about it. Or not? Do both tandem along happily (or unhappily...). What's the connection with free will and determinism?And how fits sin in?
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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All you have is questions. However, you said spirit and thought might be two different things. Maybe we have the same idea if you explain yours. As far as sin you may use any word like unethical by any of the written Ethics. If you don’t have defined ethics then we use sin as the root definition to mean generic or some extended version. Yes, I might start there.
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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It takes a while to explain my whole view but I'm working on it in a long story. Basically it says the universe is a copy of the eternal heavens insofar the creatures in them and their habitats. So all universal creatures have a divine being in eternal infinite heaven. The gods were playing the same games of love and hate that all universal creatures play out. The gods had good reason to create us (this creation power makes all gods stand apart from universal creatures). I wont go deeper into that but they told me in a dream. The human gods were involved in the colossal task to create special particles. In the great joy before the creation event and the unforeseen realization, the gods forgot to supervise the homonid gods. The consequences are visible all around us. That's why they tried to contact me. They succeeded partially. Sin? The gods made love, made war, including the people-gods. But they played and fooled around beyond good and bad. Something worse than bad. This caused havoc in the heavenly research program to create and develop two kinds of right particles, the love and hate particles...
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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Mythology named them and gave definitions. Anyway, what is your definition of Spirit? And why are you so different from any other dreamer?
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

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Raymond wrote: April 1st, 2022, 11:38 am It takes a while to explain my whole view but I'm working on it in a long story. Basically it says the universe is a copy of the eternal heavens insofar the creatures in them and their habitats. So all universal creatures have a divine being in eternal infinite heaven. The gods were playing the same games of love and hate that all universal creatures play out. The gods had good reason to create us (this creation power makes all gods stand apart from universal creatures). I wont go deeper into that but they told me in a dream. The human gods were involved in the colossal task to create special particles. In the great joy before the creation event and the unforeseen realization, the gods forgot to supervise the homonid gods. The consequences are visible all around us. That's why they tried to contact me. They succeeded partially. Sin? The gods made love, made war, including the people-gods. But they played and fooled around beyond good and bad. Something worse than bad. This caused havoc in the heavenly research program to create and develop two kinds of right particles, the love and hate particles...
Well, thank god you were here to receive that dream in order to explain how the universe works to the rest of us.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

Post by Raymond »

LuckyR wrote: April 1st, 2022, 1:01 pm
Raymond wrote: April 1st, 2022, 11:38 am It takes a while to explain my whole view but I'm working on it in a long story. Basically it says the universe is a copy of the eternal heavens insofar the creatures in them and their habitats. So all universal creatures have a divine being in eternal infinite heaven. The gods were playing the same games of love and hate that all universal creatures play out. The gods had good reason to create us (this creation power makes all gods stand apart from universal creatures). I wont go deeper into that but they told me in a dream. The human gods were involved in the colossal task to create special particles. In the great joy before the creation event and the unforeseen realization, the gods forgot to supervise the homonid gods. The consequences are visible all around us. That's why they tried to contact me. They succeeded partially. Sin? The gods made love, made war, including the people-gods. But they played and fooled around beyond good and bad. Something worse than bad. This caused havoc in the heavenly research program to create and develop two kinds of right particles, the love and hate particles...
Well, thank god you were here to receive that dream in order to explain how the universe works to the rest of us.
"Well, thank god" :D

You can say that! And it's much simpler as thought. But now what? What if you know it? Tell the happy story to everyone?
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Re: What is 'Free will'?

Post by LuckyR »

Raymond wrote: April 1st, 2022, 1:52 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 1st, 2022, 1:01 pm
Raymond wrote: April 1st, 2022, 11:38 am It takes a while to explain my whole view but I'm working on it in a long story. Basically it says the universe is a copy of the eternal heavens insofar the creatures in them and their habitats. So all universal creatures have a divine being in eternal infinite heaven. The gods were playing the same games of love and hate that all universal creatures play out. The gods had good reason to create us (this creation power makes all gods stand apart from universal creatures). I wont go deeper into that but they told me in a dream. The human gods were involved in the colossal task to create special particles. In the great joy before the creation event and the unforeseen realization, the gods forgot to supervise the homonid gods. The consequences are visible all around us. That's why they tried to contact me. They succeeded partially. Sin? The gods made love, made war, including the people-gods. But they played and fooled around beyond good and bad. Something worse than bad. This caused havoc in the heavenly research program to create and develop two kinds of right particles, the love and hate particles...
Well, thank god you were here to receive that dream in order to explain how the universe works to the rest of us.
"Well, thank god" :D

You can say that! And it's much simpler as thought. But now what? What if you know it? Tell the happy story to everyone?
That's what social media is for, namely to distribute low quality information to low quality intellects. Go for it.
"As usual... it depends."
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