Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Use this forum to discuss the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Free Will, Do You Have It? by Albertus Kral
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: February 15th, 2022, 5:50 am
Sushan wrote: February 15th, 2022, 4:56 am
stevie wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:15 am
Sushan wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:58 pm Why people are so reluctant to change their beliefs, even when they see that those beliefs are false?
If they see false beliefs then they should be able to discern right beliefs. But what are right beliefs?
It is hard to decide the reliability or accuracy of complex concepts, so let's keep such things aside. But if we think about a concept like the earth 🌎 being flat, which some people still believe and try to prove so, I really cannot understand why people are so resistant to accept such an obvious fact.
So you seem to be referring to scientific evidence. I refrain from using the word "fact" because that's just an expression of belief and I do not advocate any belief. Nevertheless scientific evidence - being based on sense perception - usually is accepted independent of beliefs with the exception of people who prefer to ignore it and indulge in speculative beliefs instead due to their psychological/cognitive setting.
It is true that everyone do not accept scientific evidence, despite how well they are proven. But that does not make those 'facts' just beliefs. I think it is better to believe objective evidence like scientific evidence, rather than believing in things which people used to believe just because they were there for a long period, even with no real ground for their existence.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: February 17th, 2022, 10:50 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 12th, 2022, 3:15 am
Sushan wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:58 pm This topic is about the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, 
Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral



New ideas often meet resistance.
The author often mentions how his new idea (according to him) was rejected and humiliated by others at first. Throughout the history we see how new ideas have been humiliated and rejected with no ground for the rejection. Most of the scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, etc. had to fight for the acceptance of their new ideas.

Why people are so reluctant to change their beliefs, even when they see that those beliefs are false? Is this an embedded quality in human nature? Or is it because they feel humiliated when someone disagrees with what they already believe? Or is it merely the jealousy towards another's potential in gaining success and popularity by showing something new to the world?
You are addressing several semi-unrelated issues. First is why new ideas meet resistance. Namely because most new ideas that counter the tried and true old ways are in fact wrong or inferior. We all hear about the one new idea that's better but folks were slow to adopt, but for every one of these success stories there are numerous new ideas that didn't improve anything and it was a good thing that very few tried them.

Second is the rare case where a new idea actually is an improvement, why do some still cling to their old ways? We don't need to look beyond force of habit. True, an unlikable messenger makes it more difficult to get the message communicated.
It is okay to reject a false or an inferior idea since we do not need to go backwards, rather than going forward. But I think we all have to be open minded about new ideas, though they seem wrong at the first instance. Such instances are not rare in history where new ideas were humiliated and rejected at the beginning, but later the world realized that they were actually correct.
Not rare from memory because we all remember interesting stories, but statistically they are much less common than false trails that lead nowhere.
"As usual... it depends."
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: February 17th, 2022, 11:46 pm
stevie wrote: February 15th, 2022, 5:50 am
Sushan wrote: February 15th, 2022, 4:56 am
stevie wrote: February 11th, 2022, 7:15 am

If they see false beliefs then they should be able to discern right beliefs. But what are right beliefs?
It is hard to decide the reliability or accuracy of complex concepts, so let's keep such things aside. But if we think about a concept like the earth 🌎 being flat, which some people still believe and try to prove so, I really cannot understand why people are so resistant to accept such an obvious fact.
So you seem to be referring to scientific evidence. I refrain from using the word "fact" because that's just an expression of belief and I do not advocate any belief. Nevertheless scientific evidence - being based on sense perception - usually is accepted independent of beliefs with the exception of people who prefer to ignore it and indulge in speculative beliefs instead due to their psychological/cognitive setting.
It is true that everyone do not accept scientific evidence, despite how well they are proven. But that does not make those 'facts' just beliefs. I think it is better to believe objective evidence like scientific evidence, rather than believing in things which people used to believe just because they were there for a long period, even with no real ground for their existence.
I don't want to start of conversation about 'belief' and 'facts' so I don't mind your selection of words at this point,
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
AgentSmith
Posts: 108
Joined: January 29th, 2022, 1:55 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by AgentSmith »

I'm reading this book titled Mental Models and it takes laws/rules/principles/facts in science, math, etc. and adapts them to life. The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.

Three scientific facts come to mind as hereto apposite:

1. Inertia (resistance to change, the tendency to prefer the status quo).

2. Resistance, electricity (the flow of a current has to occur under an opposition to that flow).

3. Activation energy (for things to start moving, a certain threshold energy level must be achieved).
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by EricPH »

AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
User avatar
AgentSmith
Posts: 108
Joined: January 29th, 2022, 1:55 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by AgentSmith »

EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I'd like to disagree, but it appears that I simply can't. Being a chain-smoker, I shall submit my deposition to the medical community as and when I succumb to deadly addiction. :wink:
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by EricPH »

AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 1:52 pm Being a chain-smoker,
Like most of us, we choose the science we want, and ignore the rest. :o
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: February 18th, 2022, 2:02 am
Sushan wrote: February 17th, 2022, 10:50 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 12th, 2022, 3:15 am
Sushan wrote: February 10th, 2022, 10:58 pm This topic is about the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, 
Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral






The author often mentions how his new idea (according to him) was rejected and humiliated by others at first. Throughout the history we see how new ideas have been humiliated and rejected with no ground for the rejection. Most of the scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, etc. had to fight for the acceptance of their new ideas.

Why people are so reluctant to change their beliefs, even when they see that those beliefs are false? Is this an embedded quality in human nature? Or is it because they feel humiliated when someone disagrees with what they already believe? Or is it merely the jealousy towards another's potential in gaining success and popularity by showing something new to the world?
You are addressing several semi-unrelated issues. First is why new ideas meet resistance. Namely because most new ideas that counter the tried and true old ways are in fact wrong or inferior. We all hear about the one new idea that's better but folks were slow to adopt, but for every one of these success stories there are numerous new ideas that didn't improve anything and it was a good thing that very few tried them.

Second is the rare case where a new idea actually is an improvement, why do some still cling to their old ways? We don't need to look beyond force of habit. True, an unlikable messenger makes it more difficult to get the message communicated.
It is okay to reject a false or an inferior idea since we do not need to go backwards, rather than going forward. But I think we all have to be open minded about new ideas, though they seem wrong at the first instance. Such instances are not rare in history where new ideas were humiliated and rejected at the beginning, but later the world realized that they were actually correct.
Not rare from memory because we all remember interesting stories, but statistically they are much less common than false trails that lead nowhere.
Once again I agree. We tend to remember such stories, but they are quite few in number in comparison to actual false leads. But out of those false leads I believe many are just mistakes, but not intentional misleadings. So they are findings of what mistakes can occur when going towards a particular target, which later becomes useful to others who go in the same pathway, so they can be cautious about them and avoid them. Although many findings are written in front of a single name, many have contributed in various ways, and even making mistakes is one way of contribution.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am I'm reading this book titled Mental Models and it takes laws/rules/principles/facts in science, math, etc. and adapts them to life. The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.

Three scientific facts come to mind as hereto apposite:

1. Inertia (resistance to change, the tendency to prefer the status quo).

2. Resistance, electricity (the flow of a current has to occur under an opposition to that flow).

3. Activation energy (for things to start moving, a certain threshold energy level must be achieved).
Different subjects can be interrelated in various ways. And we can relate known facts to unknown facts and get into agreements. But, as I see, neither of the above situations cannot be applied here. All the things that you mentioned are scientifically true regarding physical objects and their properties. But they cannot explain how human thoughts and mind work in different situations differently.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers 🚬 know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 3:06 pm
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 1:52 pm Being a chain-smoker,
Like most of us, we choose the science we want, and ignore the rest. :o
I think you have a point there. People choose favourable things and deny unfavourable ones, not depending on objective facts, but depending on subjective preferences. So the choice may not be the correct one, but it will be the palatable one. This is applicable to science and scientific theories as well.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
EricPH
Posts: 449
Joined: October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by EricPH »

Sushan wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pm
EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers 🚬 know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.
Having been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.

Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.

I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.

We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: February 24th, 2022, 2:55 am
Sushan wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pm
EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers 🚬 know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.
Having been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.

Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.

I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.

We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
Addressing smoking without mentioning it's addicting nature is misleading at best. Just as using the word "choice" to address issues that have addiction as a major facet, without also mentioning it's heavy influence is also misleading.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by LuckyR »

EricPH wrote: February 24th, 2022, 2:55 am
Sushan wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pm
EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers 🚬 know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.
Having been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.

Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.

I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.

We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
Addressing smoking without mentioning it's addicting nature is misleading at best. Just as using the word "choice" to address issues that have addiction as a major facet, without also mentioning it's heavy influence is also misleading.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 2221
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)

Post by Sushan »

EricPH wrote: February 24th, 2022, 2:55 am
Sushan wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pm
EricPH wrote: February 18th, 2022, 11:02 am
AgentSmith wrote: February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers 🚬 know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.
Having been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.

Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.

I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.

We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
Seeking and believing in God can be named as an addiction, but may not be considered as an addiction for real depending on how addiction is defined. And also I think it is not fair to compare these two addictions, addiction to cigarettes and addiction to God, because cigarettes actually have the ability to make the user addicted to it while God does not have such a control over His followers.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Post Reply

Return to “Free Will, Do You Have It? by Albertus Kral”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021