It is true that everyone do not accept scientific evidence, despite how well they are proven. But that does not make those 'facts' just beliefs. I think it is better to believe objective evidence like scientific evidence, rather than believing in things which people used to believe just because they were there for a long period, even with no real ground for their existence.stevie wrote: ↑February 15th, 2022, 5:50 amSo you seem to be referring to scientific evidence. I refrain from using the word "fact" because that's just an expression of belief and I do not advocate any belief. Nevertheless scientific evidence - being based on sense perception - usually is accepted independent of beliefs with the exception of people who prefer to ignore it and indulge in speculative beliefs instead due to their psychological/cognitive setting.Sushan wrote: ↑February 15th, 2022, 4:56 amIt is hard to decide the reliability or accuracy of complex concepts, so let's keep such things aside. But if we think about a concept like the earth being flat, which some people still believe and try to prove so, I really cannot understand why people are so resistant to accept such an obvious fact.
Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Not rare from memory because we all remember interesting stories, but statistically they are much less common than false trails that lead nowhere.Sushan wrote: ↑February 17th, 2022, 10:50 pmIt is okay to reject a false or an inferior idea since we do not need to go backwards, rather than going forward. But I think we all have to be open minded about new ideas, though they seem wrong at the first instance. Such instances are not rare in history where new ideas were humiliated and rejected at the beginning, but later the world realized that they were actually correct.LuckyR wrote: ↑February 12th, 2022, 3:15 amYou are addressing several semi-unrelated issues. First is why new ideas meet resistance. Namely because most new ideas that counter the tried and true old ways are in fact wrong or inferior. We all hear about the one new idea that's better but folks were slow to adopt, but for every one of these success stories there are numerous new ideas that didn't improve anything and it was a good thing that very few tried them.Sushan wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 10:58 pm This topic is about the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month,
Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
The author often mentions how his new idea (according to him) was rejected and humiliated by others at first. Throughout the history we see how new ideas have been humiliated and rejected with no ground for the rejection. Most of the scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, etc. had to fight for the acceptance of their new ideas.New ideas often meet resistance.
Why people are so reluctant to change their beliefs, even when they see that those beliefs are false? Is this an embedded quality in human nature? Or is it because they feel humiliated when someone disagrees with what they already believe? Or is it merely the jealousy towards another's potential in gaining success and popularity by showing something new to the world?
Second is the rare case where a new idea actually is an improvement, why do some still cling to their old ways? We don't need to look beyond force of habit. True, an unlikable messenger makes it more difficult to get the message communicated.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
I don't want to start of conversation about 'belief' and 'facts' so I don't mind your selection of words at this point,Sushan wrote: ↑February 17th, 2022, 11:46 pmIt is true that everyone do not accept scientific evidence, despite how well they are proven. But that does not make those 'facts' just beliefs. I think it is better to believe objective evidence like scientific evidence, rather than believing in things which people used to believe just because they were there for a long period, even with no real ground for their existence.stevie wrote: ↑February 15th, 2022, 5:50 amSo you seem to be referring to scientific evidence. I refrain from using the word "fact" because that's just an expression of belief and I do not advocate any belief. Nevertheless scientific evidence - being based on sense perception - usually is accepted independent of beliefs with the exception of people who prefer to ignore it and indulge in speculative beliefs instead due to their psychological/cognitive setting.Sushan wrote: ↑February 15th, 2022, 4:56 amIt is hard to decide the reliability or accuracy of complex concepts, so let's keep such things aside. But if we think about a concept like the earth being flat, which some people still believe and try to prove so, I really cannot understand why people are so resistant to accept such an obvious fact.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Three scientific facts come to mind as hereto apposite:
1. Inertia (resistance to change, the tendency to prefer the status quo).
2. Resistance, electricity (the flow of a current has to occur under an opposition to that flow).
3. Activation energy (for things to start moving, a certain threshold energy level must be achieved).
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
There is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
I'd like to disagree, but it appears that I simply can't. Being a chain-smoker, I shall submit my deposition to the medical community as and when I succumb to deadly addiction.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Like most of us, we choose the science we want, and ignore the rest.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Once again I agree. We tend to remember such stories, but they are quite few in number in comparison to actual false leads. But out of those false leads I believe many are just mistakes, but not intentional misleadings. So they are findings of what mistakes can occur when going towards a particular target, which later becomes useful to others who go in the same pathway, so they can be cautious about them and avoid them. Although many findings are written in front of a single name, many have contributed in various ways, and even making mistakes is one way of contribution.LuckyR wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 2:02 amNot rare from memory because we all remember interesting stories, but statistically they are much less common than false trails that lead nowhere.Sushan wrote: ↑February 17th, 2022, 10:50 pmIt is okay to reject a false or an inferior idea since we do not need to go backwards, rather than going forward. But I think we all have to be open minded about new ideas, though they seem wrong at the first instance. Such instances are not rare in history where new ideas were humiliated and rejected at the beginning, but later the world realized that they were actually correct.LuckyR wrote: ↑February 12th, 2022, 3:15 amYou are addressing several semi-unrelated issues. First is why new ideas meet resistance. Namely because most new ideas that counter the tried and true old ways are in fact wrong or inferior. We all hear about the one new idea that's better but folks were slow to adopt, but for every one of these success stories there are numerous new ideas that didn't improve anything and it was a good thing that very few tried them.Sushan wrote: ↑February 10th, 2022, 10:58 pm This topic is about the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month,
Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
The author often mentions how his new idea (according to him) was rejected and humiliated by others at first. Throughout the history we see how new ideas have been humiliated and rejected with no ground for the rejection. Most of the scientists, philosophers, mathematicians, etc. had to fight for the acceptance of their new ideas.
Why people are so reluctant to change their beliefs, even when they see that those beliefs are false? Is this an embedded quality in human nature? Or is it because they feel humiliated when someone disagrees with what they already believe? Or is it merely the jealousy towards another's potential in gaining success and popularity by showing something new to the world?
Second is the rare case where a new idea actually is an improvement, why do some still cling to their old ways? We don't need to look beyond force of habit. True, an unlikable messenger makes it more difficult to get the message communicated.
– William James
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Different subjects can be interrelated in various ways. And we can relate known facts to unknown facts and get into agreements. But, as I see, neither of the above situations cannot be applied here. All the things that you mentioned are scientifically true regarding physical objects and their properties. But they cannot explain how human thoughts and mind work in different situations differently.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am I'm reading this book titled Mental Models and it takes laws/rules/principles/facts in science, math, etc. and adapts them to life. The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
Three scientific facts come to mind as hereto apposite:
1. Inertia (resistance to change, the tendency to prefer the status quo).
2. Resistance, electricity (the flow of a current has to occur under an opposition to that flow).
3. Activation energy (for things to start moving, a certain threshold energy level must be achieved).
– William James
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
I think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
– William James
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
I think you have a point there. People choose favourable things and deny unfavourable ones, not depending on objective facts, but depending on subjective preferences. So the choice may not be the correct one, but it will be the palatable one. This is applicable to science and scientific theories as well.
– William James
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Having been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.Sushan wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pmI think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.
We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Addressing smoking without mentioning it's addicting nature is misleading at best. Just as using the word "choice" to address issues that have addiction as a major facet, without also mentioning it's heavy influence is also misleading.EricPH wrote: ↑February 24th, 2022, 2:55 amHaving been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.Sushan wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pmI think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.
We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Addressing smoking without mentioning it's addicting nature is misleading at best. Just as using the word "choice" to address issues that have addiction as a major facet, without also mentioning it's heavy influence is also misleading.EricPH wrote: ↑February 24th, 2022, 2:55 amHaving been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.Sushan wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pmI think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.
We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
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Re: Reluctance to change vs feeling humiliated (or jealousy)
Seeking and believing in God can be named as an addiction, but may not be considered as an addiction for real depending on how addiction is defined. And also I think it is not fair to compare these two addictions, addiction to cigarettes and addiction to God, because cigarettes actually have the ability to make the user addicted to it while God does not have such a control over His followers.EricPH wrote: ↑February 24th, 2022, 2:55 amHaving been a smoker, I think the first cigarette was a choice. Every smoke afterwards helps to reinforce the addiction, it is incredibly hard to break free.Sushan wrote: ↑February 23rd, 2022, 1:06 pmI think it is a habit or a choice more than ignorance. Almost all smokers know the health hazards of their habit. But they do not try to stop it because they are used to it. We see how many of them even openly speak about their illnesses which has caused by smoking, yet they never quit. Human mind and behaviour is very much difficult to understand.EricPH wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 11:02 amThere is probably far more evidence to show smoking is bad, than there is evidence to say how the Big Bang happened. Millions choose to ignore the science.AgentSmith wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 5:04 am The basic premise is that we can use scientific principles/facts to make sense of and navigate the world in ways that increase the likelihood of a satisfactory outcome.
Even after a forty year break, I sense that having just one smoke will send me back into addiction.
I was in my late forties when I started to search for God. Things then started to happen that reinforced those beliefs. I guess we justify to ourselves what we want to believe. Belief in God could be considered to be like an addiction we choose to feed.
We can't really be judged on what we believe. But we can be judged on what our beliefs inspire us to do.
– William James
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023