Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Use this forum to discuss the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer
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Sushan
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Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer

My conscious is clear, I never harmed anyone in Vietnam and God is my witness!
Billy Springer


It is good to see someone coming back from a war without harming anyone, soldiers or civilians.

Humans have been engaged in numerous wars for various reasons throughout the history. Gradually, being a soldier converted from being a warrior to being an employee (with no disrespect for the sacrifices done by soldiers all over the world), and from face to face combat to gunfights from distant. Soldiers obey the commands and open fire. Sometimes they even do not see the enemy, and they are not certain whether their bullets hit the enemy or not. And in most occasions they do not have any personal grudge against their enemies. What they simply do is 'doing their job correctly'.

In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer

My conscious is clear, I never harmed anyone in Vietnam and God is my witness!
Billy Springer


It is good to see someone coming back from a war without harming anyone, soldiers or civilians.

Humans have been engaged in numerous wars for various reasons throughout the history. Gradually, being a soldier converted from being a warrior to being an employee (with no disrespect for the sacrifices done by soldiers all over the world), and from face to face combat to gunfights from distant. Soldiers obey the commands and open fire. Sometimes they even do not see the enemy, and they are not certain whether their bullets hit the enemy or not. And in most occasions they do not have any personal grudge against their enemies. What they simply do is 'doing their job correctly'.

In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
Through the simple act of killing? No, that's their job. Though one could argue that the job of soldiering is inherently sinful, though that would make the government officials who make armies possible the sinners.

On a related note, there are sinful ways of killing by soldiers. Thermobaric bombing for example, some would also put the use of flamethrowers, napalm and shotguns in that category.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
"sin" is a religious concept, so it seems your question is addressed to religious users.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by intentes_pupil »

In his book "Nonviolent Communication", Marshal B. Rosenberg talks about the idea of "Life alienating Communication" which blocks our natural ability of feeling compassion.
One of these examples are the use of statements in which implicitly we negate our own responsibility; and one particular example that fits the conversation is referring to VAGUE FORCES (Ex: I had to do it. It was my job) or AUTHORITY (Ex: my boss told me to do it).

Having introduced this concept, what interests me about this topic is not the religious debate about calling something a sin (since it has a moral implication and we fall easily in the relativist argument); rather I would like to discuss about the RESPONSABILITY a soldier/any person has for the acts they commit.

In that sense, I would reframe the question as "Are soldiers responsible for they acts when they kill?".

My answer to that is YES.

However, I don't judge the fact of killing. I personally would like people to find different ways to solve their conflicts rather than with violence, but in the case of a soldier I see it part of the social contract.
We as society agree on rights and duties, including who has the right of using the force.

A different but related subject would be who decides when to use the force (meaning the army) and for what purposes. I personally think that the use of force is only justified for defense. But that might be discussed in another feed :)
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by JackDaydream »

Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer

My conscious is clear, I never harmed anyone in Vietnam and God is my witness!
Billy Springer


It is good to see someone coming back from a war without harming anyone, soldiers or civilians.

Humans have been engaged in numerous wars for various reasons throughout the history. Gradually, being a soldier converted from being a warrior to being an employee (with no disrespect for the sacrifices done by soldiers all over the world), and from face to face combat to gunfights from distant. Soldiers obey the commands and open fire. Sometimes they even do not see the enemy, and they are not certain whether their bullets hit the enemy or not. And in most occasions they do not have any personal grudge against their enemies. What they simply do is 'doing their job correctly'.

In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
I would not be able to kill as a soldier and live with my own conscience. A lot of people see it as being about following orders and as a job, especially if it seen as a 'just war'. My uncle killed as a soldier and he cried about it. It probably requires being able to distance oneself from emotions to be able to kill in war. It is complex ethically because war is about defense and I am not a moral absolutist so I would not judge people who do become soldiers, even though I prefer pacifism and nonviolent protest and believe that there are better solutions than war.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am Do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
First, I reject the aberrant Christian concept of "sin". But yes, these soldiers are just murderers, acting on orders from their 'superiors'. If murder is always wrong, then murder in war is wrong.


...


Unless murder is only wrong sometimes...?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by AverageBozo »

Are soldiers responsible for their actions when they kill?

My case is complex, I think. However, I always feel that there is no recovery, only regret, for what I’ve done. I killed a young soldier during the war in Vietnam.

I cannot express how deeply sorrowful I feel that because of me a dear mother never got to see her beloved son return home from the war. I am haunted by this feeling, lodged in the background of my everyday activities, EVERY day except for infrequent intervals of just a few days.

I take no joy in life, as I have ended someone else’s. The sadness brings me to the brink of tears. I seriously wish that I had been killed by that soldier rather than having to live with the knowledge that I killed him.

Factors of mitigation are of no comfort. I had no intent to kill anyone. The jungle was so dense that I didn’t see my enemy until there was less than 3 feet between us. I acted out of fear, instinctively and instantly without any thought of the morality or consequences of what I was doing. I acted in the moment in self defense.

None of those factors excuse me—for (after the fact) I realized that he was unarmed and already wounded. He looked young—he might have been any age between 14 and 34. He had been abandoned by his team and was of no threat to anyone. He may have been trying to surrender. As for me, I was a medic and conscientious objector (to all wars, not only the so-called “unjust” ones).

Your reply cannot condemn me further than I am already condemned. Neither do I seek your approval or support. I just thought you might want to hear my story.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by EricPH »

AverageBozo wrote: March 1st, 2022, 1:03 pm I seriously wish that I had been killed by that soldier rather than having to live with the knowledge that I killed him.
They call it survivors guilt, and it is a tragedy that you still have to suffer.

I feel it is our leaders who should be held to account. There is a tried and tested formula for war --
Hermann Goering

Why of course the people don’t want to go to war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can hope for is to come back to his farm in one piece.
Naturally the common people don’t want war, neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.

But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether in a democracy, fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Bush and Blair followed in the footsteps of Hermon Goering when they sent troops off to Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 1st, 2022, 10:27 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am Do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
First, I reject the aberrant Christian concept of "sin". But yes, these soldiers are just murderers, acting on orders from their 'superiors'. If murder is always wrong, then murder in war is wrong.


...


Unless murder is only wrong sometimes...?
Exactly, killing is only wrong most of the time. Typical killing by soldiers being a common example of when it is not wrong.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am Do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 1st, 2022, 10:27 am First, I reject the aberrant Christian concept of "sin". But yes, these soldiers are just murderers, acting on orders from their 'superiors'. If murder is always wrong, then murder in war is wrong.


...


Unless murder is only wrong sometimes...?
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 1:46 am Exactly, killing is only wrong most of the time. Typical killing by soldiers being a common example of when it is not wrong.
So what you're saying is that killing by, or on the orders of, an individual is wrong, but killing ordered by society/tribe/nation/etc is OK?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by EricPH »

Where does the just war fit in?

Is the Russian soldier justified when he kills a Ukrainian soldier? What would happen to the Russian soldier if he refused to follow orders?

Is it the same when a Ukrainian soldier kills a Russian soldier?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

EricPH wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 9:14 am Where does the just war fit in?
No war is just. War indicates a failure of diplomacy. It is a desperate measure, adopted when there is no other choice. [That doesn't apply so much to the aggressor.]
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by AverageBozo »

EricPH wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 9:14 am Where does the just war fit in?

Is the Russian soldier justified when he kills a Ukrainian soldier? What would happen to the Russian soldier if he refused to follow orders?

Is it the same when a Ukrainian soldier kills a Russian soldier?
I suppose that if a war can be justified then a soldier killing another soldier could be justified. But since nothing can justify a person killing another—aside from self-defense—nothing can justify a war.

To the extent that a soldier is a person, he cannot be justified in killing another. To the extent that a person is a soldier, he cannot disobey an order without facing a court martial, regardless of whether he is Ukrainian or Russian or any other nationality.

If one nation is aggressing and a second nation is defending itself, although the second nation is justified in its self-defense, the war per se isn’t just, as it began with an aggressor. There is no such thing as a just war.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by CIN »

There is no special taboo against killing, nor against war. War is just another situation where one's responsibility is the same as it always is, to do what one can to work towards increasing the happiness of sentient beings and reducing their unhappiness. Sometimes threats to that overall goal arise and one has to join with others to destroy the threat, as soldiers in Ukraine are having to do at the moment. Sometimes the threat can only be destroyed by killing people, in this case Russian soldiers. Regrettable, but sometimes necessary.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 8:34 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am Do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 1st, 2022, 10:27 am First, I reject the aberrant Christian concept of "sin". But yes, these soldiers are just murderers, acting on orders from their 'superiors'. If murder is always wrong, then murder in war is wrong.

...

Unless murder is only wrong sometimes...?
LuckyR wrote: March 2nd, 2022, 1:46 am Exactly, killing is only wrong most of the time. Typical killing by soldiers being a common example of when it is not wrong.
So what you're saying is that killing by, or on the orders of, an individual is wrong, but killing ordered by society/tribe/nation/etc is OK?
This is an understandably mistaken dichotomy. Societies etc. don’t give military orders. Only individuals do, such as the head of society or the top general. The order is then passed down the ranks until it reaches the soldiers.

Anyway, I just don’t see that it makes a difference who orders a soldier to kill—it’s just as wrong in any case except for self-defense.
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