Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 20th, 2022, 9:59 pm Societies appoint political leaders and then they appoint the military leaders. So the society has some sort of a responsibility in what the politicians and the Generals do. But after being appointed, do these people ask the opinion of the society before taking decisions? They do whatever they want despite even hughes resistance from the society. The recent most example is President Putin's continuation of war despite the resistance from the Russians.
No, of course they don't. They wouldn't be representatives if they had to refer back to those who appointed them for every decision. That is what they were appointed to do - to take decisions on behalf of those they represent, without needing to consult those they represent for every decision. What point electing someone to represent you, and then having to take part in every decision they are asked to make? They would not then be representatives, but merely spokespersons.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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EricPH wrote: March 4th, 2022, 7:51 am
CIN wrote: March 3rd, 2022, 7:46 pm
At first glance these may seem reasonable as a rule-of-thumb guide as to whether going to war is justified. However, there are problems with it. Putin could argue that his military operation in Ukraine (he doesn't call it a war) meets all of Aquinas' criteria: it is being fought in self-defence, by preventing nuclear weapons being sited in Ukraine which could then be used against Russia;
Putin is following in the footsteps of George Bush; when he used the same argument to bomb Iraq in the fear of invisible WMD's. This cannot be a just war; because America and Russia know they have all the weapons of mass destruction in their own back yard. It cannot be a just war because civilians are killed; others are injured and hundreds of thousands of the weakest people are displaced and become refugees. At the moment Putin would not direct his weapons at America who already have an arsenal of nukes that are probably already pointing at Russia. You can only be the bully in the playground if you pick on someone weaker than yourself.

Both Bush and Putin are following in the footsteps of Herman Goering when he said --
Why of course the people don’t want to go to war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can hope for is to come back to his farm in one piece.
Naturally the common people don’t want war, neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.

But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether in a democracy, fascist dictatorship or a parliament or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
If Goering, Bush and Putin are declaring war for an unjust reason, they must have their own agenda of power, greed or some other motivation. People suffer because our leaders play god and decide who lives and dies.
That is true. Today's world there is no actual right or wrong. It is always the 'one who is having more numbers wins' concept. All you have to do is gain more and more to support your side and then whatever the wrongdoings you do will be warmly accepted. When the American side wage war, the Russian team blames them, and when the Russians do so, the American team does the same. Its all politics but nothing else.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 4th, 2022, 1:33 pm
superkayko wrote: March 3rd, 2022, 4:49 pm If in a defensive war a soldier kills someone to protect the sovereignty of his nation, he is fighting for an ideal or for the betterment of his society, would you look at him the same way as if he was a murderer who kills for sport or fun?
Thankfully, there are very few murderers who kill for sport or pleasure. Most have better reasons than that, even if they are not 'good' reasons. And, in many (most?) wars, both sides will swear they are fighting a "defensive" war, or something similar, making it difficult to say that one side is wrong, while the other are merely defending themselves...
I think that is true and commonly aapplied in situations other than wars as well. All of us are correct in our own eyes. No one will say "yes, I am wrong, but I continue to do the wrong thing". Anyone (atleast most) will say, "he did so first and I only reacted". Then who is wrong? Nobody knows.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 8th, 2022, 7:30 am
Good_Egg wrote: March 7th, 2022, 5:02 am Seems to me that top generals almost never order individual deaths. That's assassination, not war.
This is what is called 'rationalisation'. Such rationalisations are often used to 'justify' unjustifiable desires and aims. The one you offer here as an example is no exception. Top generals give orders that will necessarily result in the deaths of soldiers, both enemy and friendly forces. This is inescapable. What you describe is not distinct from assassination. In fact, it could as easily be called "assassination" as anything else. War includes and embraces assassination, and other things such as torture, the capture and imprisonment of civilians, senseless deaths, and so on. It's all war.
I am not going to say that wars are good. But everything that happens in war cannot be taken as parts of the war. Taking civilians for a shield, taking civilians as prisoners, torturing POW, etc. are all choices that soldiers (or their commanders) make on the ground. Do they provide any support for the war? Maybe yes, maybe not. But could they have been avoided. Definitely could if that choice was made by the participants. But they have chosen to do so. But such happenings cannot be taken as the war.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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LuckyR wrote: March 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 8th, 2022, 7:30 am
Good_Egg wrote: March 7th, 2022, 5:02 am Seems to me that top generals almost never order individual deaths. That's assassination, not war.
This is what is called 'rationalisation'. Such rationalisations are often used to 'justify' unjustifiable desires and aims. The one you offer here as an example is no exception. Top generals give orders that will necessarily result in the deaths of soldiers, both enemy and friendly forces. This is inescapable. What you describe is not distinct from assassination. In fact, it could as easily be called "assassination" as anything else. War includes and embraces assassination, and other things such as torture, the capture and imprisonment of civilians, senseless deaths, and so on. It's all war.
All very true but you're not getting to the crux of the issue. Just as generals give orders that soldiers carry out, you're missing the point that generals don't declare wars, politicians do. Though we shouldn't stop there, the society as a whole (since funding is through broad taxation) approves the creation of a professional military. Why blame someone specifically for using a military that had/has broad support for it's creation? It was, after all created to be used.
Many state driven work are done with tax payers' money. But does anyone willingly pay tax? I don't think so. After collecting tax, does the government ask the public "shall we spend your money on this?". I haven't heard so. So I don't think it is reasonable to put the blame of having and maintaining an army on the whole society.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 21st, 2022, 2:23 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 8th, 2022, 2:30 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 8th, 2022, 7:30 am
Good_Egg wrote: March 7th, 2022, 5:02 am Seems to me that top generals almost never order individual deaths. That's assassination, not war.
This is what is called 'rationalisation'. Such rationalisations are often used to 'justify' unjustifiable desires and aims. The one you offer here as an example is no exception. Top generals give orders that will necessarily result in the deaths of soldiers, both enemy and friendly forces. This is inescapable. What you describe is not distinct from assassination. In fact, it could as easily be called "assassination" as anything else. War includes and embraces assassination, and other things such as torture, the capture and imprisonment of civilians, senseless deaths, and so on. It's all war.
All very true but you're not getting to the crux of the issue. Just as generals give orders that soldiers carry out, you're missing the point that generals don't declare wars, politicians do. Though we shouldn't stop there, the society as a whole (since funding is through broad taxation) approves the creation of a professional military. Why blame someone specifically for using a military that had/has broad support for it's creation? It was, after all created to be used.
Many state driven work are done with tax payers' money. But does anyone willingly pay tax? I don't think so. After collecting tax, does the government ask the public "shall we spend your money on this?". I haven't heard so. So I don't think it is reasonable to put the blame of having and maintaining an army on the whole society.
Ok, so who has that responsibility, by your way of thinking?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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AverageBozo wrote: March 13th, 2022, 10:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 13th, 2022, 7:12 am
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2022, 2:13 pm We are in complete agreement. As to actual assassination, say by the CIA, is IMO not the responsibility of the populace at large, because although the CIA was also created/funded through tax dollars, I believe that there was not transparency that (secret) assassinations would be a part of the bargain. Thus political leaders bear that responsibility.
In this last, I think we still disagree. 😉 The way democracy works, we elect representatives to govern on our behalf, and we all agree to abide by their decisions, and to own them. And politicians, being human (?), do wrong just often as they do right. We cannot expect to own their actions only if they perform as we hoped they might. We have to accept it all, even the bits where things go wrong. So CIA assassinations are still the responsibility of all American citizens, even if they shouldn't've done them; they did them, and that's it.
There’s a misunderstanding of politicians here, and the relationship between politicians and voters.

Career politicians—and it may be said that all politicians are careerists—make their livelihood by getting votes. In order to win elections, they sometimes lie a little.

For example, a candidate for office might not declare that he will support CIA assassins in conducting their black ops activities.

Yet when it comes time to approve a budget, it becomes obvious that he favors CIA dirty work.

In fact, main stream media may have asked a candidate what he intends for his relationship with the CIA to be.

Voters who are hoodwinked into voting for a candidate cannot be responsible for their ignorance of a candidate’s true intentions.

Only those voters who knowingly elect a black ops politician to office can be assigned a portion of the blame for supporting such activities, not every American citizen.
I think the whole system is having a big issue. Earlier days most of the countries had kings and the ruling ssystem had so many issues. Then the democracy based parliamentary system came into practice. It is based on everyone participating in the ruling of the country. But how can anyone expect certain things by voting a human being, which is the most unpredictable creature in the whole animal kingdom?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 15th, 2022, 8:35 am
Good_Egg wrote: March 14th, 2022, 5:50 am Are you saying that someone who declines to vote and maximizes their opportunity to evade taxes thereby avoids moral responsibility for the actions of the nation's soldiers ?
Definitely not. Any citizen has all the benefits and responsibilities of a citizen, even if they decline to exercise their vote. They are still represented by the collective choice they chose not to take part in. And if they evade paying tax, there are laws in place that bind all citizens...

The moral responsibility for the actions of an army are equally shared by each and every citizen of their country, no exceptions.
We see how Russian citizens protest against the decision of their president and the government to wage war in Ukraine. They do so under the imminent threat of being arrested for treason. Are they still responsible for what their soldiers are doing in Ukraine?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:28 pm We see how Russian citizens protest against the decision of their president and the government to wage war in Ukraine. They do so under the imminent threat of being arrested for treason. Are they still responsible for what their soldiers are doing in Ukraine?
While reading your answer I thought of something that intrigues me right now.

What do you think the reason of those people is for them to feel the urge to protest?

I thought of it and came to the idea that it might be that they feel (for themselves) morally responsible for what their country/army is doing to a brother land.
Why would that be the case if in the authoritarian system they live in they have no choice of influencing/electing their governors and therefore no direct or indirect influence on the actions of the army?
Why would somebody make himself responsible for atrocities they are not perpetrating?

Do you think there might be another reason why they feel like they have to protest?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:28 pm We see how Russian citizens protest against the decision of their president and the government to wage war in Ukraine. They do so under the imminent threat of being arrested for treason. Are they still responsible for what their soldiers are doing in Ukraine?
To the extent that Russian citizens can choose their leaders, they are responsible. But, to the extent that Russian elections are fixed - in some way or other - they cannot be held responsible. So, in this example, the criterion is whether Putin is really the chosen representative of the Russian people. 🤔
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 18th, 2022, 12:30 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 17th, 2022, 10:04 am [...] How can it be otherwise?
intentes_pupil wrote: March 18th, 2022, 4:51 am That's an interesting thought. I don't necessarily agree, but I guess that with that logic one could say that people under tyrannies and corrupted government which monopolize law, force and power; are responsible for the acts and decisions that these governments take (let's say invade a neighbor country).
If I understand you correctly, I disagree. The citizens of a dictatorship are NOT responsible for the actions of their government, over which they have no control or authority. They did not appoint their government to govern on their behalf. Rather, their country was taken over by a tyrant, who rules by fear and force, as they all do.
How about when the dictator was initially elected by votes by the population? There are several countries that are ruled by governments that came to power by taking votes of its people, but then became dictators and ruling as they wish. Can't the voters be held responsible for the actions of the government that they chose?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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LuckyR wrote: March 20th, 2022, 4:17 am
Sushan wrote: March 20th, 2022, 2:15 am
LuckyR wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:25 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer


Billy Springer


It is good to see someone coming back from a war without harming anyone, soldiers or civilians.

Humans have been engaged in numerous wars for various reasons throughout the history. Gradually, being a soldier converted from being a warrior to being an employee (with no disrespect for the sacrifices done by soldiers all over the world), and from face to face combat to gunfights from distant. Soldiers obey the commands and open fire. Sometimes they even do not see the enemy, and they are not certain whether their bullets hit the enemy or not. And in most occasions they do not have any personal grudge against their enemies. What they simply do is 'doing their job correctly'.

In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
Through the simple act of killing? No, that's their job. Though one could argue that the job of soldiering is inherently sinful, though that would make the government officials who make armies possible the sinners.

On a related note, there are sinful ways of killing by soldiers. Thermobaric bombing for example, some would also put the use of flamethrowers, napalm and shotguns in that category.
What you have mentioned in the second paragraph are the ways that are prohibited in conventional warfare by the International Humanitarian Laws. But by causing pain or not what they do is killing. So someone looses his/her life, and many suffer due to that loss. Is it not wrong? Is it not a sin? Shouldn't someone be responsible for that?
No. Society has decided it is not wrong and not a sin. That's why the military was created in the first place. The responsibility for that ethical conclusion is shared by the collective citizenry and their government. Other countries have decided not to create a military, those citizens and governmental officials have escaped that responsibility.

It is intellectually dishonest to create a military with full knowledge of what the military does, then later claim Innocence and/or ignorance when it performs exactly as planned.
Many countries who were relatively powerful decided to invade other countries, steal their riches, and become rich themselves. They raised armies for that purpose, and citizens too supported their acts. So the responsibility is shared. But later the idea of an army was to defend a country and protect the nation, and also to help other law enforcing authorities to maintain law and order. So the primary task was not killing anyone. By accepting such an army I don't think anyone have already accepted the right of a soldier to kill a person.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 10:18 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 20th, 2022, 4:17 am
Sushan wrote: March 20th, 2022, 2:15 am
LuckyR wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:25 am

Through the simple act of killing? No, that's their job. Though one could argue that the job of soldiering is inherently sinful, though that would make the government officials who make armies possible the sinners.

On a related note, there are sinful ways of killing by soldiers. Thermobaric bombing for example, some would also put the use of flamethrowers, napalm and shotguns in that category.
What you have mentioned in the second paragraph are the ways that are prohibited in conventional warfare by the International Humanitarian Laws. But by causing pain or not what they do is killing. So someone looses his/her life, and many suffer due to that loss. Is it not wrong? Is it not a sin? Shouldn't someone be responsible for that?
No. Society has decided it is not wrong and not a sin. That's why the military was created in the first place. The responsibility for that ethical conclusion is shared by the collective citizenry and their government. Other countries have decided not to create a military, those citizens and governmental officials have escaped that responsibility.

It is intellectually dishonest to create a military with full knowledge of what the military does, then later claim Innocence and/or ignorance when it performs exactly as planned.
Many countries who were relatively powerful decided to invade other countries, steal their riches, and become rich themselves. They raised armies for that purpose, and citizens too supported their acts. So the responsibility is shared. But later the idea of an army was to defend a country and protect the nation, and also to help other law enforcing authorities to maintain law and order. So the primary task was not killing anyone. By accepting such an army I don't think anyone have already accepted the right of a soldier to kill a person.
Not so much. How, exactly does a soldier defend his country without using lethal weapons? And therefore how does one use lethal weapons without an expectation of causing deaths?
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: March 18th, 2022, 12:30 pm The citizens of a dictatorship are NOT responsible for the actions of their government, over which they have no control or authority. They did not appoint their government to govern on their behalf. Rather, their country was taken over by a tyrant, who rules by fear and force, as they all do.
Sushan wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 10:11 pm How about when the dictator was initially elected by votes by the population? There are several countries that are ruled by governments that came to power by taking votes of its people, but then became dictators and ruling as they wish. Can't the voters be held responsible for the actions of the government that they chose?
Many decisions aren't black-and-white. Most also feature a 'grey area', which can sometimes be larger (in 'area') than the black or the white. Cases that enter, or even approach, the grey area must be separately and individually considered. I don't think such encounters with grey areas undermine the thinking behind the black and white, but rather that they remind us of the uncertainties that RL includes, uncertainties that are wholly unavoidable. Binary thinking, where it is inappropriate, can do considerable damage.
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Re: Do soldiers sin by killing in war?

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Sushan wrote: March 20th, 2022, 2:18 am
stevie wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:33 am
Sushan wrote: March 1st, 2022, 4:00 am In that case, do soldiers sin by killing their enemies in a battle?
"sin" is a religious concept, so it seems your question is addressed to religious users.
Well, then let's change it to address the non-religious ones as well. Is it a crime to kill in war? War crimes are seperately defined by the International Humanitarian Laws. But the killings that are not included in them, are they justifiable or good?
Of course it is not a crime if a soldier kills the enemy because the soldier has been adviced to kill tke enemy by the authorities that define "crime".
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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