The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Use this forum to discuss the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer
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Sushan
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer


The enemy of my enemy is my friend
-ancient proverb-

I felt free in Vietnam; I could go anyplace I wanted without any fear whatsoever. I was called "soul brother" and told almost daily that the Vietnamese and black people had the same enemy. I have to admit, they did have a point.
-Billy Springer-


Seemingly Billy Springer has realized (or shown us) that the former mentioned ancient proverb is true after so many years, but in quite a controversial manner. Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy? Could Racism take a man that far those days?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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AgentSmith
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by AgentSmith »

Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
stevie
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy?
You should ask him.
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm Could Racism take a man that far those days?
"that far" isn't evident. Every view/outlook has effects.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer


The enemy of my enemy is my friend
-ancient proverb-

I felt free in Vietnam; I could go anyplace I wanted without any fear whatsoever. I was called "soul brother" and told almost daily that the Vietnamese and black people had the same enemy. I have to admit, they did have a point.
-Billy Springer-


Seemingly Billy Springer has realized (or shown us) that the former mentioned ancient proverb is true after so many years, but in quite a controversial manner. Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy? Could Racism take a man that far those days?
Are you familiar with the term: fragging?
"As usual... it depends."
ernestm
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by ernestm »

AgentSmith wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:34 pm Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
If I may extend that thought, there are a number of colloquial examples of linguistic differences between Western rationalists and African American speakers. Most notably perhaps is that a double negative emphasizes negativity rather than evaluate as a positive, viz. 'there ain't no more that can be said.' This results in many anomalies of thought regarding antonyms.

If the writer is sufficiently aware of the cultural differences in linguistic practices, the paradox could even be intentional.
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Sushan
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

AgentSmith wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:34 pm Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
I think the complexity lies within the humans. We are not completely honest in many of our relationships. Even friends have secrets which are not shared, grudges, etc. So if one wants to define a true friendship and give an example, it is really hard to find such a thing with these arbitrary relationships. When humans become more wicked, the relationships become complex too.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: March 14th, 2022, 2:51 am
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy?
You should ask him.
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm Could Racism take a man that far those days?
"that far" isn't evident. Every view/outlook has effects.
You should ask him
.

As far as he had told from his book, yes, he has really become mistrustful about his comrades. Seemingly despite the training period together, they have not developed a deep bond.

"that far" isn't evident.


What is not evident here?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: March 15th, 2022, 2:36 am
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer


The enemy of my enemy is my friend
-ancient proverb-

I felt free in Vietnam; I could go anyplace I wanted without any fear whatsoever. I was called "soul brother" and told almost daily that the Vietnamese and black people had the same enemy. I have to admit, they did have a point.
-Billy Springer-


Seemingly Billy Springer has realized (or shown us) that the former mentioned ancient proverb is true after so many years, but in quite a controversial manner. Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy? Could Racism take a man that far those days?
Are you familiar with the term: fragging?
Thank you for taking the term into my attention. I read about it and surprised by seeing that nearly 800-1000 attempts have been made during Vietnam war to kill superior officers by throwing fragmenting grenades at them while they were sleeping. Seemingly the Vietnam war had deranged the minds of the soldiers, and racial discrimination has only been a fraction of it.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

ernestm wrote: March 18th, 2022, 3:56 am
AgentSmith wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:34 pm Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
If I may extend that thought, there are a number of colloquial examples of linguistic differences between Western rationalists and African American speakers. Most notably perhaps is that a double negative emphasizes negativity rather than evaluate as a positive, viz. 'there ain't no more that can be said.' This results in many anomalies of thought regarding antonyms.

If the writer is sufficiently aware of the cultural differences in linguistic practices, the paradox could even be intentional.
Seemingly the concept of 'double negative' has become arbitrary and being used wrong nowadays. As far as I know, a double negative will provide a positive answer. But I have seen many occasions where it is used to convey a "NO".

Eg: I don't have nothing to say

This should mean (grammatically) that I have something to say. But this is used often to say that I have nothing to say. I am not sure whether this is due to differences in linguistics practices. But it is seen more and more today. Seemingly the care for grammar is growing less and less by day by day.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
ernestm
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by ernestm »

Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:33 pm
ernestm wrote: March 18th, 2022, 3:56 am
AgentSmith wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:34 pm Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
If I may extend that thought, there are a number of colloquial examples of linguistic differences between Western rationalists and African American speakers. Most notably perhaps is that a double negative emphasizes negativity rather than evaluate as a positive, viz. 'there ain't no more that can be said.' This results in many anomalies of thought regarding antonyms.

If the writer is sufficiently aware of the cultural differences in linguistic practices, the paradox could even be intentional.
Seemingly the concept of 'double negative' has become arbitrary and being used wrong nowadays. As far as I know, a double negative will provide a positive answer. But I have seen many occasions where it is used to convey a "NO".

Eg: I don't have nothing to say

This should mean (grammatically) that I have something to say. But this is used often to say that I have nothing to say. I am not sure whether this is due to differences in linguistics practices. But it is seen more and more today. Seemingly the care for grammar is growing less and less by day by day.
Oh, it is a long standing observation of African American vernacular that a double negative acts as emphasis, and has been enjoyed so much one now hears white people using it occasionally. It was first observed last cetnruty that it could account for why African Americans perform less well on comprehension tests, but the research was banned as racist after some outbreaks of violence at conferences discussing the issue.
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Sushan
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

ernestm wrote: March 20th, 2022, 3:57 am
Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:33 pm
ernestm wrote: March 18th, 2022, 3:56 am
AgentSmith wrote: March 13th, 2022, 9:34 pm Life is a complicated, messy business. Relationships (friendly, inimical, neutral, etc.) are like a tangled ball of yarn; if one wants some clarity if only to try and make sense of it all, one ends up tired, angry, frustrated, and utterly bewildered.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is just one way the complexity of life and nature manifests itself.
If I may extend that thought, there are a number of colloquial examples of linguistic differences between Western rationalists and African American speakers. Most notably perhaps is that a double negative emphasizes negativity rather than evaluate as a positive, viz. 'there ain't no more that can be said.' This results in many anomalies of thought regarding antonyms.

If the writer is sufficiently aware of the cultural differences in linguistic practices, the paradox could even be intentional.
Seemingly the concept of 'double negative' has become arbitrary and being used wrong nowadays. As far as I know, a double negative will provide a positive answer. But I have seen many occasions where it is used to convey a "NO".

Eg: I don't have nothing to say

This should mean (grammatically) that I have something to say. But this is used often to say that I have nothing to say. I am not sure whether this is due to differences in linguistics practices. But it is seen more and more today. Seemingly the care for grammar is growing less and less by day by day.
Oh, it is a long standing observation of African American vernacular that a double negative acts as emphasis, and has been enjoyed so much one now hears white people using it occasionally. It was first observed last cetnruty that it could account for why African Americans perform less well on comprehension tests, but the research was banned as racist after some outbreaks of violence at conferences discussing the issue.
I am not a racist. And I am not against making a language simpler. All the grammar and spelling makes it difficult to learn a language. But it is necessary to have some agreement when a language is used. If I understand the total opposite of what you say, how can we communicate with each other. And when it is put into thought, I don't see a way to emphasize a "NO" by saying it twice in a sentence. It will always be a "YES" to me.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:28 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 15th, 2022, 2:36 am
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer


The enemy of my enemy is my friend
-ancient proverb-

I felt free in Vietnam; I could go anyplace I wanted without any fear whatsoever. I was called "soul brother" and told almost daily that the Vietnamese and black people had the same enemy. I have to admit, they did have a point.
-Billy Springer-


Seemingly Billy Springer has realized (or shown us) that the former mentioned ancient proverb is true after so many years, but in quite a controversial manner. Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy? Could Racism take a man that far those days?
Are you familiar with the term: fragging?
Thank you for taking the term into my attention. I read about it and surprised by seeing that nearly 800-1000 attempts have been made during Vietnam war to kill superior officers by throwing fragmenting grenades at them while they were sleeping. Seemingly the Vietnam war had deranged the minds of the soldiers, and racial discrimination has only been a fraction of it.
Yes, that is only the most dramatic difference between Vietnam and all other US conflicts.
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: March 21st, 2022, 5:12 pm
Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:28 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 15th, 2022, 2:36 am
Sushan wrote: March 13th, 2022, 1:53 pm This topic is about the March 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, My Enemy in Vietnam by Billy Springer




-ancient proverb-



-Billy Springer-


Seemingly Billy Springer has realized (or shown us) that the former mentioned ancient proverb is true after so many years, but in quite a controversial manner. Did he really saw his comrades as his enemy and his enemy as his allies? Could he really become mistrustful about his comrades with whom he trained together to fight the enemy? Could Racism take a man that far those days?
Are you familiar with the term: fragging?
Thank you for taking the term into my attention. I read about it and surprised by seeing that nearly 800-1000 attempts have been made during Vietnam war to kill superior officers by throwing fragmenting grenades at them while they were sleeping. Seemingly the Vietnam war had deranged the minds of the soldiers, and racial discrimination has only been a fraction of it.
Yes, that is only the most dramatic difference between Vietnam and all other US conflicts.
I think it is the only 'known' dramatic difference. Probably there have been similar (in nature) events in other wars as well, in which the soldiers were under immense pressure. One such example is the numerous battles with the Japanese in the small and faraway islands, in which the environment became a bigger threat to the US soldiers than the Japanese. I believe similar things happened in relation to owning ration and other much needed stuff. No matter how hard a soldier is trained, the ability to get adopted to a particular situation should be inherent.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 21st, 2022, 5:12 pm
Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:28 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 15th, 2022, 2:36 am

Are you familiar with the term: fragging?
Thank you for taking the term into my attention. I read about it and surprised by seeing that nearly 800-1000 attempts have been made during Vietnam war to kill superior officers by throwing fragmenting grenades at them while they were sleeping. Seemingly the Vietnam war had deranged the minds of the soldiers, and racial discrimination has only been a fraction of it.
Yes, that is only the most dramatic difference between Vietnam and all other US conflicts.
I think it is the only 'known' dramatic difference. Probably there have been similar (in nature) events in other wars as well, in which the soldiers were under immense pressure. One such example is the numerous battles with the Japanese in the small and faraway islands, in which the environment became a bigger threat to the US soldiers than the Japanese. I believe similar things happened in relation to owning ration and other much needed stuff. No matter how hard a soldier is trained, the ability to get adopted to a particular situation should be inherent.
Well you are correct, it isn't about training, it's about camaraderie. Soldiers fight for their buddies, not their country. And if they believe that their commanders are killing their buddies, they will consider killing their commannder.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: March 23rd, 2022, 1:23 am
Sushan wrote: March 22nd, 2022, 10:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 21st, 2022, 5:12 pm
Sushan wrote: March 19th, 2022, 10:28 pm

Thank you for taking the term into my attention. I read about it and surprised by seeing that nearly 800-1000 attempts have been made during Vietnam war to kill superior officers by throwing fragmenting grenades at them while they were sleeping. Seemingly the Vietnam war had deranged the minds of the soldiers, and racial discrimination has only been a fraction of it.
Yes, that is only the most dramatic difference between Vietnam and all other US conflicts.
I think it is the only 'known' dramatic difference. Probably there have been similar (in nature) events in other wars as well, in which the soldiers were under immense pressure. One such example is the numerous battles with the Japanese in the small and faraway islands, in which the environment became a bigger threat to the US soldiers than the Japanese. I believe similar things happened in relation to owning ration and other much needed stuff. No matter how hard a soldier is trained, the ability to get adopted to a particular situation should be inherent.
Well you are correct, it isn't about training, it's about camaraderie. Soldiers fight for their buddies, not their country. And if they believe that their commanders are killing their buddies, they will consider killing their commannder.
Yes, commanding a trained and armed person should be done carefully. Soldiers are trained as buddy pairs, and that bond is very strong in most occasions. If they are let to think that the commanders are sending them or their comrades to imminent deaths, then they will easily turn against their commanders.

Actually speaking armies are maintained by maintaining fear. All the rules are made to maintain a certain fear of a junior to his/her senior. And also soldiers are usually occupied at something always to keep their minds occupied, not letting them to have unnecessary thoughts.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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