Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Sushan]

I think the key is to develop EMPATHY instead of trying to do better than our parents did. Everybody feels the same and everybody has the same needs, the difference is how strong those are.

Empathy is a difficult concept, even though it might not seem so at first glance. I don't think that "everybody feels the same and everybody has the same needs," that's a problem with the Golden Rule. If you treat everyone else 'as you would wish to be treated', there are some whose needs are different from yours. The Golden Rule really needs to say 'treat everyone as they would wish to be treated (and expect the same from them in return)'.

IMO, of course.

I think we think the same, we just say it differently.

When I say "everybody has the same feelings and needs" I mean that needs and feelings are universal concepts (needs: autonomy, connection, meaning, play, peace, etc ; feelings: affection, excitement, connection, etc). BUT, how strong those needs/feelings are differentiate us from each other (and even moment to moment).

I guess that is the same you mean when you say "there are some whose needs are different from yours", right?

I see what you're getting at, and agree. But it isn't really what I was getting at. I was actually thinking of a particular, if unusual, example. If an autistic person is distressed, some (following the Golden Rule) might act as they hope someone else would act toward them, and put a comforting arm around the distressed person. But the autist has a problem with personal physical contact, and is made more distressed by the unwanted 'handling'.

This is a very detailed and unusual example, I admit. But it does illustrate the point I tried to make in my previous post: not everybody wants or needs to be treated as you would in their circumstances. In that sense, if no other, our needs can be quite different from someone else's.

In those specific cases I agree with you.

I find it also very interesting the way people with some mental conditions (sorry if I am not using the most appropriate term here, not meaning to be disrespectful) perceive the world. A nice example I found while listening Lex Friedman Podcast interview with Karl Deisseroth about bioengineering, depression, schizophrenia, ets; was the fact (unknown for me till then) that there are people who are highly psychotic but it does not have a negative impact in their lives and therefore they are not considered to have a mental conditions. These are people who hallucinate while daydreaming or have deep spiritual experiences, etc.

That changes the whole game and makes me question the "nature" and origin of things like feelings, thoughts, etc. Analyzing only the extremes leads to unsuccessful rules and generalizations, but obviating them leads to partial truths.

Indeed, considering the broad spectrum of human experiences and mental states, it's crucial to avoid generalizations, especially when it comes to parenting. The example of individuals with certain mental conditions or states who do not perceive them as negative is quite thought-provoking. It challenges our conventional understanding of what constitutes a 'healthy' or 'normal' mental state.

This also calls into question our approach towards parenting. Perhaps instead of trying to universally 'avoid mistakes' or fulfill certain predefined needs, we should strive to understand and respect the unique mental and emotional landscape of each child. This perspective shifts the focus from 'correcting' or 'improving' based on our experiences and towards observing, listening, and accommodating the distinct needs of our children.

This doesn't negate the importance of empathy, but it underscores the importance of an informed empathy - one that respects individual differences and is flexible enough to adapt. We should be cautious of any one-size-fits-all approach, even when it comes to something as universally endorsed as empathy.

[Sushan]

I find it also very interesting the way people with some mental conditions (sorry if I am not using the most appropriate term here, not meaning to be disrespectful) perceive the world. A nice example I found while listening Lex Friedman Podcast interview with Karl Deisseroth about bioengineering, depression, schizophrenia, ets; was the fact (unknown for me till then) that there are people who are highly psychotic but it does not have a negative impact in their lives and therefore they are not considered to have a mental conditions. These are people who hallucinate while daydreaming or have deep spiritual experiences, etc.

That changes the whole game and makes me question the "nature" and origin of things like feelings, thoughts, etc. Analyzing only the extremes leads to unsuccessful rules and generalizations, but obviating them leads to partial truths.

I think you are describing "neuro-diversity" here? The realisation that many people who have historically been considered 𝖆𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖗𝖆𝖓𝖙 or 𝖉𝖆𝖒𝖆𝖌𝖊𝖉 are merely different? There are, I believe, psychopaths who live, constructively and productively, in our societies without displaying any of the frighteningly-negative things we expect of them. [If I misunderstood that, or misremembered what I read, just ignore that last bit. ] It is surmised that quite a few prominent historical figures were autistic - although historical diagnosis is fraught with uncertainty! - including scientists, artists, and generals. It may well be true. And I'm sure there are many other examples of which I am unaware.

Those who are different have contributed much over the centuries, and yet they are ridiculed, neglected, and even persecuted or imprisoned. But now I'm starting to ramble, or preach, so I'll stop here.

I appreciate your insight, and you're absolutely correct. This conversation about neurodiversity is crucial. The concept of neurodiversity shifts our perspective to understand that those who have historically been considered aberrant or damaged are, in fact, just different. This understanding helps us appreciate the multitude of ways in which human minds can be organized and operate. It's a perspective that celebrates the unique contributions and potentials of all minds, including those that deviate from the so-called "norm".

Embracing neurodiversity requires us to question everything we thought we knew about parenting. A neurodivergent child needs a parent who can question their pre-conceived notions about parenting. As parents, we should focus on truly understanding who our child is rather than trying to change them to fit into a predetermined mold. There is no one "right" way to parent, especially for parents raising children with neurological differences. When we start questioning widely held ideals and assumptions, we can become more open to the possibilities for our children.

This shift in mindset also involves breaking free of limited thinking and the pervasive "shoulds" that can restrict our understanding of what our child's life could look like. By imagining what's possible and setting aside time to explore what an ideal day or life might look like for our child, just as they are, we can begin to open up our imagination in a positive way. We can start to envision a world that embraces their unique wiring and nurtures their potential.

For further reference,

https://www.additudemag.com/neurodiverg ... arenthood/

[Sushan]

Often some core values inculcated by our parents are trickled down to our kids without us knowing. We can never judge our parent’s upbringing. There are pros and cons to everything that we might not realise. But, if you have been in a dysfunctional family and been counselled well, you can certainly avoid your parents’ mistakes and perhaps raise better children.

While it's true that we may unintentionally pass down certain values or behaviors to our children, it's also important to consider that each individual, including our children, will develop their own unique personality and character traits. This development is influenced not only by the home environment but also by their personal experiences, social interactions, and innate dispositions.

As such, even when we consciously try to raise our children differently than how we were raised, they may still end up resembling our parents in certain ways. This doesn't necessarily mean that our parenting approach has failed; it simply illustrates the complexity of human development and the myriad factors that shape who we become.

Moreover, while we might feel that certain aspects of our upbringing were harmful or less than ideal, it's crucial to remember that our parents were likely doing their best with the knowledge and resources they had at the time. This doesn't excuse harmful behaviors or absolve them of responsibility, but it does provide some context.

And indeed, if we come from a dysfunctional family and have received appropriate counseling or therapy, we might be better equipped to avoid repeating the same mistakes. However, striving to do the "opposite" of what our parents did might not always be the best approach. Instead, it can be more beneficial to focus on understanding our own values, learning effective parenting strategies, and seeking professional guidance when necessary.

[Sushan]

Welcome, Zainab!

Often some core values inculcated by our parents are trickled down to our kids without us knowing. We can never judge our parent’s upbringing. There are pros and cons to everything that we might not realise. But, if you have been in a dysfunctional family and been counselled well, you can certainly avoid your parents’ mistakes and perhaps raise better children.

Children learn uncritically, to start with. It's only later, around age 13, that we start to really think for ourselves. During that early learning period, we absorb cultural values from our (social) environment without even knowing we're doing it. So I was raised a racist, having unconsciously and unknowingly absorbed those values from a highly racist society (1950s and -60s UK). I have had to work very hard, over the years, to set aside, and moderate those racist impulses. But I can never get rid of them. Sadly, they are too deeply buried for that to be possible. The only good part of my example is that I have at least succeeded in living and acting as an anti-racist or non-racist. It was hard work, though, and it remains so.

As for dysfunctional families, we don't live in a 'Hollywood world', but in the real world. And in the real world, there are few if any perfect families. Most or all of them are "dysfunctional" to some extent. Real families are all very different, and very imperfect, just like all other human doings.

We all strive to avoid our parents' mistakes ... but then we go on to make our own mistakes instead. None of us are perfect. The best we can do is to try our best...

Indeed, you touch upon a profound truth. The values and attitudes we absorb in our early years often become deeply ingrained, forming a part of our unconscious mind. While we may consciously reject certain harmful attitudes or behaviors as we grow older and develop our own understanding of the world, those early influences can still linger beneath the surface. And yes, it can be a lifelong journey to continually recognize, challenge, and work to change these deeply embedded biases.

However, it's important to remember that even though perfection is unattainable, continual growth and self-improvement are not only possible but also highly commendable. As you rightly point out, we all make mistakes, and it's through these mistakes that we learn and grow. The goal is not to achieve flawlessness but to strive to be better versions of ourselves, day by day.

This perspective is equally applicable to parenting. We may not be able to avoid making mistakes entirely, but we can commit to learning from those mistakes and doing our best to rectify them. We can also seek to understand and address the harmful influences from our own upbringing that may affect how we raise our children.

[Sushan]

Quoting Jordan Peterson "Raise your children so you don't hate them." The human brain doesn't fully mature until we are 25. What I see is too many parents allow their children to be their friend or the cliche "I don't want them to hate me." Your child is not your friend. They are all individuals and should be raised as such. I have four children. 3 of them are polite. 2 of them are respectful. 1 of them is sociopath (by the literal definition of the word). 1 of them doesn't know her identity. The 2 that are my oldest and youngest are the nicest people you will ever meet. However, all four are treated according to their individual personality. They are held accountable for their actions. None of my children acted like those kids you see on TV that act like little monsters.
My mother was far from perfect. I am not perfect. But if you take how you were raised and apply it to your child you cannot predict the results. I think if you lead by example then your child will emulate that In their own way. My mother would say "Do as I say not as I do." That does not work. She was also the person who said "The Apple doesn't fall from the tree," when she would get angry with me over something trivial. To that I have the attitude "Then I must be you because you are supposed to be the tree." I have no relationship with her, by her choice, but I still remember those words.

Your insights bring to light some crucial points. It's true that children are not carbon copies of their parents and cannot be raised using a one-size-fits-all approach. Every child is a unique individual with their own personality, inclinations, and needs. As such, parenting strategies need to be tailored to the individual child and not based on a predetermined blueprint from our own upbringing.

The point about leading by example is particularly important. Children are often said to be the best imitators, and they learn more from what they see than what they are told. Hence, it is essential for us as parents to demonstrate the values and behaviors we want our children to embody. We can't expect them to follow our advice if our actions contradict our words.

On the note of parenting mistakes, it is important to remember that we, too, are humans and are bound to make mistakes. It is how we learn from them and strive to improve that truly matters. We can use our experiences, both positive and negative, to inform our parenting approach, but we must also be willing to adapt and evolve as we learn more about our children and their unique needs.

As for the saying "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree," it's worth considering that while we may inherit certain traits from our parents, we also have the capacity to choose our path and grow in our own unique ways. We are not solely the product of our upbringing; our choices and experiences also play a significant role in shaping who we become.

[LuckyR]

The title says "avoid mistakes", but the author did almost everything reverse/opposite. This is not how it works!

Maybe this is how our relationship with our parents works; we are more judgmental about their relationship with us, others, and each other than any other person on Earth because here we involve the first and premature onset of emotions in our lives. We never become neutral to see what they did wrong and a lot of other things they did the best to us. Maybe we think they are guilty of bringing us into this cruel world.

Not raising your child like you were raised, you should become an observer without intervention as well as judgment to your memories and retain a lot of good things which happened to you in that era including improving bad things in your child's life. Moreover, as everyone has different needs or priorities; so do the children. Listen to the needs of your kid and try to fulfill them instead of being in the past trauma and preparing for your kid to say the same what you perceive about your parents.

Parents should listen to the needs of their children. Sometimes the two parties may have different interests and different goals. For a better relationship parents should become good listeners. But should they do all what kids need? NO. Children always have childish thoughts and interests which may actually harm their growth and future. So it is up to the parents to guide and steer them correctly.

Yes, we can never be neutral about our parents' parenting since we were directly subjected to it. But after becoming adults, or even parents, then we can look back and think what might have changed if their parenting was different. And if we can apply the insight that we gain from it to raise our own kids I think we can get better results.

While parenting is multifactorial, for the purposes of this discussion usually what is being referred to is strict vs lenient. Currently, the form that poor parenting is commonly taking is too lenient in response to perceived strictness in one's own upbringing.

Indeed, the concept of strictness and leniency is one of the primary dichotomies in parenting styles, and it's true that some parents may swing from one extreme to the other in reaction to their own upbringing. However, it's crucial to remember that these are not the only factors at play when we talk about parenting.

Parenting involves not just the enforcement of rules and boundaries (or the lack thereof), but also the communication of values, the nurturing of a child's individuality, the provision of emotional support, and much more. So, while some parents may react to a strict upbringing by being overly lenient with their own children (or vice versa), this doesn't necessarily address the full spectrum of their parenting responsibilities.

Moreover, it's also important to recognize that every child is unique, with their own temperament, needs, and circumstances. What works for one child may not work for another. Therefore, while reflecting on one's own upbringing can provide valuable insights, it's also necessary to adapt and respond to the unique needs and characteristics of each child. This is where the art and challenge of parenting truly lie: not just in avoiding the perceived mistakes of our own parents, but in adapting and responding to the unique individuals that our children are.

This also opens up another layer of discussion: how should parents strike a balance between learning from their own upbringing and responding to the unique needs of their children? And how can they navigate the complex task of setting boundaries while also fostering their child's individuality and autonomy?

We are in agreement that parenting is an incredibly complex (I called it multifactorial), endeavor. Everybody knows that. Though in relatively superficial conversations, such as this one, commonly the strict (being the "parent" ie disciplinarian) vs the lenient (being the "buddy" or friend of your kid) is the most frequently debated in common, lay conversation.

It's certainly the one folks think about when witnessing out of control kids at the store.

[Anil G]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

[LuckyR]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

[Pattern-chaser]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

I might go a little farther, and observe that Anil G has described what all parents aspire to do, although there are many forms of words we could have used, not just Anil G's, to describe what we meant.

[LuckyR]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

I might go a little farther, and observe that Anil G has described what all parents aspire to do, although there are many forms of words we could have used, not just Anil G's, to describe what we meant.

Not me. In my experience children need limits and when practiced dispassionately, disciple need not be "traumatic". It is the mistaken assumption that disciple equates to trauma that leads to overly lenient parenting. Though I agree that disciple to the point of trauma exists all too often and should be avoided.

[Sushan]

Parents should listen to the needs of their children. Sometimes the two parties may have different interests and different goals. For a better relationship parents should become good listeners. But should they do all what kids need? NO. Children always have childish thoughts and interests which may actually harm their growth and future. So it is up to the parents to guide and steer them correctly.

Yes, we can never be neutral about our parents' parenting since we were directly subjected to it. But after becoming adults, or even parents, then we can look back and think what might have changed if their parenting was different. And if we can apply the insight that we gain from it to raise our own kids I think we can get better results.

While parenting is multifactorial, for the purposes of this discussion usually what is being referred to is strict vs lenient. Currently, the form that poor parenting is commonly taking is too lenient in response to perceived strictness in one's own upbringing.

Indeed, the concept of strictness and leniency is one of the primary dichotomies in parenting styles, and it's true that some parents may swing from one extreme to the other in reaction to their own upbringing. However, it's crucial to remember that these are not the only factors at play when we talk about parenting.

Parenting involves not just the enforcement of rules and boundaries (or the lack thereof), but also the communication of values, the nurturing of a child's individuality, the provision of emotional support, and much more. So, while some parents may react to a strict upbringing by being overly lenient with their own children (or vice versa), this doesn't necessarily address the full spectrum of their parenting responsibilities.

Moreover, it's also important to recognize that every child is unique, with their own temperament, needs, and circumstances. What works for one child may not work for another. Therefore, while reflecting on one's own upbringing can provide valuable insights, it's also necessary to adapt and respond to the unique needs and characteristics of each child. This is where the art and challenge of parenting truly lie: not just in avoiding the perceived mistakes of our own parents, but in adapting and responding to the unique individuals that our children are.

This also opens up another layer of discussion: how should parents strike a balance between learning from their own upbringing and responding to the unique needs of their children? And how can they navigate the complex task of setting boundaries while also fostering their child's individuality and autonomy?

We are in agreement that parenting is an incredibly complex (I called it multifactorial), endeavor. Everybody knows that. Though in relatively superficial conversations, such as this one, commonly the strict (being the "parent" ie disciplinarian) vs the lenient (being the "buddy" or friend of your kid) is the most frequently debated in common, lay conversation.

It's certainly the one folks think about when witnessing out of control kids at the store.

Certainly, the strict versus lenient dichotomy does tend to dominate discussions about parenting, especially in public discourse. It's a salient, observable aspect of parenting, and one that can have immediate and noticeable impacts on a child's behavior.

However, I believe it is crucial to not let this oversimplification overshadow the profound complexity and diversity of the parenting experience. The reality is that every interaction a parent has with their child is a nuanced negotiation, a delicate dance that balances guidance, support, discipline, and love. A parent is more than just a rule-enforcer or a friend; they are a teacher, a confidante, a role model, a supporter, and so much more.

We should also be mindful of the danger of judging other parents too harshly based on brief public interactions. The child throwing a tantrum in the store may be struggling with sensory overload, or they may be testing boundaries in a way that is developmentally appropriate. The parent may be choosing to handle the situation in a particular way based on their understanding of their child's needs and their long-term parenting goals.

[Sushan]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

The concern you raise about mental health is indeed important. We live in an era where mental health issues are becoming more visible and more openly discussed. We understand now, more than ever, the lasting impact that childhood experiences can have on an individual's mental health.

However, it's essential to remember that simply being 'easier' on children is not necessarily a guarantee of better mental health outcomes. The complexity of mental health means it's influenced by a multitude of factors, including genetics, environment, and personal experiences. Moreover, the notion of being 'easier' could lead to permissiveness, which is not always beneficial. Children also need structure, boundaries, and consistency to feel secure and develop resilience.

Instead of swinging to the opposite end of the spectrum, perhaps what we need is a balanced approach that combines understanding, empathy, and support with setting appropriate expectations and boundaries. This approach can help children develop the tools they need to navigate the world, while also nurturing their mental wellbeing.

It's also crucial that we, as parents, equip ourselves with the knowledge and understanding to recognize and respond to signs of mental health issues in our children. Mental health education and awareness, combined with a compassionate and balanced approach to parenting, can go a long way in supporting our children's mental health.

[Sushan]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

Indeed, the concerns around mental health are becoming more prominent, leading to a shift in parenting styles. However, it's important to remember that each child is a unique individual, and what works for one might not work for another. In our attempts to avoid repeating what we perceive as the mistakes of our parents, we must be careful not to swing to the other extreme.

[Sushan]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

I might go a little farther, and observe that Anil G has described what all parents aspire to do, although there are many forms of words we could have used, not just Anil G's, to describe what we meant.

Indeed, all parents, regardless of the generation, aspire to provide the best for their children. We all carry a set of values, beliefs, and experiences that shape how we raise our children. Whether it's to protect them from the struggles we faced, to instill in them the values we hold dear, or to help them develop the skills and traits we believe are important, our parenting decisions are often a reflection of our own life experiences.

[Pattern-chaser]

I think our generation's parents will go easy on their children. Mental Illness and Depression are getting high in number day by day. We are considering it a big thing and we all will try to raise it in a way that our children don't get traumatic childhood.

It has been my observation for awhile now that many parents are doing exactly what you describe and more recently for the "reasoning" that you articulate.

I might go a little farther, and observe that Anil G has described what all parents aspire to do, although there are many forms of words we could have used, not just Anil G's, to describe what we meant.

Not me. In my experience children need limits and when practiced dispassionately, discipline need not be "traumatic". It is the mistaken assumption that discipline equates to trauma that leads to overly lenient parenting. Though I agree that discipline to the point of trauma exists all too often and should be avoided.

[I corrected "disciple" to read "discipline". Auto-correct, perhaps on a phone? I hate 'em! I hate all touch-screen devices; they're so *#@$$ difficult to use!]

I agree. I meant only to say that 'going easy' on our kids is one thing among many that they need from their parents if they are to thrive. I think it would be a mistake if a parent's *only* aim was to "go easy" on their kids. That might sound like a cop-out, like a parent trying to evade their parental responsibilities?