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Does Society Need Prisons?

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GE Morton
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by GE Morton » January 25th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 8:00 am

I agree that there are many myths that uphold American society. The myth of America is well expressed in the emotive words of Star Spangled Banner. Another very important myth that upholds American society ( not only American society!)is money which is the myth which upholds the practice of trade. There is also the old Christian myth which we are informed is strongly adhered to by many people in America and, in America especially , is allied to the myth of money.
Well, I'm not sure any of those myths "uphold" society, in the sense that the society would dissolve without them. Humans remain in social settings for quite pragmatic reasons, which are pretty constant regardless of the myths embraced by various groups of members.

Nor am I sure what you mean by the "myth" of money. I understand a "myth" to be a persisting set of beliefs not supported by evidence. What beliefs about money do you think are unsupported by evidence?

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » January 25th, 2019, 2:42 pm

GE Morton wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 1:26 pm
Belindi wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 8:00 am

I agree that there are many myths that uphold American society. The myth of America is well expressed in the emotive words of Star Spangled Banner. Another very important myth that upholds American society ( not only American society!)is money which is the myth which upholds the practice of trade. There is also the old Christian myth which we are informed is strongly adhered to by many people in America and, in America especially , is allied to the myth of money.
Well, I'm not sure any of those myths "uphold" society, in the sense that the society would dissolve without them. Humans remain in social settings for quite pragmatic reasons, which are pretty constant regardless of the myths embraced by various groups of members.

Nor am I sure what you mean by the "myth" of money. I understand a "myth" to be a persisting set of beliefs not supported by evidence. What beliefs about money do you think are unsupported by evidence?
A piece of printed paper or plastic is worth goods is an insupportable belief unless everybody believes the fiction that it's worth something.

GE Morton
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by GE Morton » January 25th, 2019, 4:38 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 2:42 pm

A piece of printed paper or plastic is worth goods is an insupportable belief unless everybody believes the fiction that it's worth something.
That belief is not a fiction if the evidence supports it. And there is ample evidence that, say, a $5 bill is worth a burger and fries --- you can exchange it for those goods at any MacDonald's, or anyplace else that serves those items.

You seem to think that because currency has no intrinsic utility, the belief that it has value is a fiction. But it isn't. Things can have value for more than one reason. While currency has no intrinsic value, it can have exchange value, and the evidence that it has that value is unquestionable.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Belindi » January 26th, 2019, 6:03 am

GE Morton wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 4:38 pm
Belindi wrote:
January 25th, 2019, 2:42 pm

A piece of printed paper or plastic is worth goods is an insupportable belief unless everybody believes the fiction that it's worth something.
That belief is not a fiction if the evidence supports it. And there is ample evidence that, say, a $5 bill is worth a burger and fries --- you can exchange it for those goods at any MacDonald's, or anyplace else that serves those items.

You seem to think that because currency has no intrinsic utility, the belief that it has value is a fiction. But it isn't. Things can have value for more than one reason. While currency has no intrinsic value, it can have exchange value, and the evidence that it has that value is unquestionable.

I use 'fiction' to mean , not a story that isn't true, but 'fiction' as in a story that communicates cultural values.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by h_k_s » January 28th, 2019, 11:55 pm

UchihaSasuke wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 5:53 am
Scott wrote:
February 28th, 2008, 4:09 am
[The following topic is featured as a leadup to the May philosophy book of the month discussion of Holding Fire.]

Does Society Need Prisons?
by Scott Hughes

Millions of people in the world currently rot in jails or prisons. People think of jails and prisons as an essential part of society, but do we really need them? Do prisons really protect people from violence and victimization, or do prisons just make matters worse? Let's look at the different types of criminals that governments throw in prison.

Non-violent non-victimizers - Governments have a tendency to criminalize behaviors that do not hurt anyone. The governments create victimless crimes by creating authoritarian laws. When people break these laws, they have not hurt anyone in any major way. These laws can include any laws outlawing victimless behaviors, such as drug possession, prostitution, peacefully practicing a religion, and so on and so forth. For example, the United States currently has over 1 million people behind bars for victimless crimes, which only limits freedom and does not protect others. Instead of putting these non-violent people in jail or prison, we can just let them go and legalize all victimless behaviors. It makes more sense to let people have freedom than to waste resources enforcing authoritarian laws.

Incidental Criminals – Some people may commit an illegal act of violence or victimization due to external conditions. We can refer to these people as incidental criminals. These 'incidental criminals' do not have any more of a tendency to hurt others than the average person. For example, consider someone who has to steal to feed his family one day. Almost anyone would do that, so it does not mean we need to throw the person in jail or prison. If we can change the conditions that cause a normal person to commit a crime, then we can do that rather than brutally lock a person in a cell. We have no need to throw a person in jail or prison if they pose no more danger than the average person but committed a one-time crime due to external circumstances.

Mentally Sick People - Finally, we have sick people. These people have some sort of mental defect that makes them a danger to other people. If we do not restrain these people, they will victimize other people. So we must restrain them. But why put them in jail or prison? They need treatment, and prison will not cure them; it will just torture them. If we put them in jail or prison, then we can never let them out because jail or prison will not cure them. If we put them into a treatment facility, then we may successfully treat or cure some of them, at which point we can safely release those ones back into society. We will protect more people by putting mentally sick people into treatment centers (including insane asylums), then by throwing them in jail or prison. These people need professional care in a medical establishment, not the punishment of prison.

I think most people feel like me in that I would prefer to protect people and to do it in as least brutal a way as possible. I have no interest in using the force of government to pointlessly get vengeance or inflict punishment using prisons. Thus, I see no need for prisons. We can release people who have no psychological defect that makes them dangerous, and we can put the ones with psychological defects in treatment. Let's base our policies on sympathy, understanding, and a desire to protect people. Let's not base policy on a wasteful indulgence in state-sanctioned vengeance.

About the author: Scott Hughes manages the Philosophy Forums, which contain a Philosophy of Politics Forum. You can use the forums to discuss topics such as this and more.

What do you think? Do you think society needs prisons? Why or why not?

1. What do you suggest for the criminals who do not belong to any of the categories discussed?
e.g. Hidan is a sane man who kills people regularly for sacrifices to the Lord Jashin of the Jashin religion he follows.


He definitely is not a non-violent non-victimizer type.
He can't be an incidental criminal because his crimes are not infrequent and are not instigated by any external factors but his own religious beliefs.
He doesn't have any kind of psychiatric disorder or psychological problem that modifies his behaviour. He just has a perspective that is radically different from the common people in the most fundamental aspects. The difference in views is no mental defect.
And even if he is put in a compassionate treatment facility, then what would be the purpose of the treatment he gets? Would it be to change his religious beliefs or something?


2. We are well aware that human acts are often driven by motivation. An integral factor of motivation is fear. Mostly, crimes are temptations that people fall into. Be it a temptation to reach earlier by overspeeding, a temptation to earn quick money by scamming etc. But still most of the people are not criminals, i.e., they do not fall into the temptations being driven by a fear of prison. If there are no prisons, it ends the fear of consequences from minds. Plus, if committing a crime means going to a place where one will be treated with compassion and professional care, it could even have the reverse motivational effects as not many people have the things that you could get in a medical facility.
Scot asks some very thought provoking questions at times and this one although simplistic (perhaps for the benefit of our simplistic minds) is one. So with that in mind let's go ahead and resurrect this thread then.

Anytime you have 3 or more people together you are going to need government and politics.

And where there is government and politics there further needs to be laws.

Since any of the two individuals in our hypothetical example can overpower the third, their actions must be somehow restrained by a Constitution and a Code.

To enforce laws there needs to be justice and punishments.

What the punishments are depends on the choices that at least 2 of the 3 of them agree on.

A prison system is simply a manner of confinement. The confinement becomes the punishment.

So to cut to the chase, as British fox hunters would say, your punishment system can be whatever you agree on, whether prisons or some other form of punishment.

A cage system for these 3 isolated people with deprivation to the extent it can be borne sounds fair to me.

Banishment is the ultimate punishment. That is what the ancient Greeks and the pre-modern British used to use. That works too.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by whitetrshsoldier » March 15th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Certainly violent offenders must be restrained. I can agree to no jail time for incidental crimes (petty theft for instance), and I can agree that the truly mentally ill should be treated instead of imprisoned. But there must be consequences for violence against others. Depriving another of one of their rights means we deprive you of yours. You sacrifice your right to liberty when you stifle the liberty of another.
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by UchihaSasuke » March 25th, 2019, 5:19 am

h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:55 pm
UchihaSasuke wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 5:53 am



1. What do you suggest for the criminals who do not belong to any of the categories discussed?
e.g. Hidan is a sane man who kills people regularly for sacrifices to the Lord Jashin of the Jashin religion he follows.


He definitely is not a non-violent non-victimizer type.
He can't be an incidental criminal because his crimes are not infrequent and are not instigated by any external factors but his own religious beliefs.
He doesn't have any kind of psychiatric disorder or psychological problem that modifies his behaviour. He just has a perspective that is radically different from the common people in the most fundamental aspects. The difference in views is no mental defect.
And even if he is put in a compassionate treatment facility, then what would be the purpose of the treatment he gets? Would it be to change his religious beliefs or something?


2. We are well aware that human acts are often driven by motivation. An integral factor of motivation is fear. Mostly, crimes are temptations that people fall into. Be it a temptation to reach earlier by overspeeding, a temptation to earn quick money by scamming etc. But still most of the people are not criminals, i.e., they do not fall into the temptations being driven by a fear of prison. If there are no prisons, it ends the fear of consequences from minds. Plus, if committing a crime means going to a place where one will be treated with compassion and professional care, it could even have the reverse motivational effects as not many people have the things that you could get in a medical facility.
Scot asks some very thought provoking questions at times and this one although simplistic (perhaps for the benefit of our simplistic minds) is one. So with that in mind let's go ahead and resurrect this thread then.

Anytime you have 3 or more people together you are going to need government and politics.

And where there is government and politics there further needs to be laws.

Since any of the two individuals in our hypothetical example can overpower the third, their actions must be somehow restrained by a Constitution and a Code.

To enforce laws there needs to be justice and punishments.

What the punishments are depends on the choices that at least 2 of the 3 of them agree on.

A prison system is simply a manner of confinement. The confinement becomes the punishment.

So to cut to the chase, as British fox hunters would say, your punishment system can be whatever you agree on, whether prisons or some other form of punishment.

A cage system for these 3 isolated people with deprivation to the extent it can be borne sounds fair to me.

Banishment is the ultimate punishment. That is what the ancient Greeks and the pre-modern British used to use. That works too.

You seem to have answered the second question in my post. The mutually agreed form of punishment e.g.confinement seems an example of just law in the ideal case of the small group of people, But opposed to it the prison system(or the alternative mentioned by Scott) are applied and to be applied on a relatively humongous population, and not all of the lawbreakers are likely to have a problem with confinement till their basic requirements of food, hygiene etc are fulfilled. Added to that, they are going to be treated with utmost care and dignity in the "compassionate treatment facility", which is a lot more than what many lawbreakers have access to on the outside. So, what I question is, will these kind of facilities not motivate people to break laws instead of follow them, the ones who don't have a problem with 'privileged confinement' at least?

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h_k_s
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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by h_k_s » March 26th, 2019, 9:11 am

UchihaSasuke wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 5:19 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:55 pm


Scot asks some very thought provoking questions at times and this one although simplistic (perhaps for the benefit of our simplistic minds) is one. So with that in mind let's go ahead and resurrect this thread then.

Anytime you have 3 or more people together you are going to need government and politics.

And where there is government and politics there further needs to be laws.

Since any of the two individuals in our hypothetical example can overpower the third, their actions must be somehow restrained by a Constitution and a Code.

To enforce laws there needs to be justice and punishments.

What the punishments are depends on the choices that at least 2 of the 3 of them agree on.

A prison system is simply a manner of confinement. The confinement becomes the punishment.

So to cut to the chase, as British fox hunters would say, your punishment system can be whatever you agree on, whether prisons or some other form of punishment.

A cage system for these 3 isolated people with deprivation to the extent it can be borne sounds fair to me.

Banishment is the ultimate punishment. That is what the ancient Greeks and the pre-modern British used to use. That works too.

You seem to have answered the second question in my post. The mutually agreed form of punishment e.g.confinement seems an example of just law in the ideal case of the small group of people, But opposed to it the prison system(or the alternative mentioned by Scott) are applied and to be applied on a relatively humongous population, and not all of the lawbreakers are likely to have a problem with confinement till their basic requirements of food, hygiene etc are fulfilled. Added to that, they are going to be treated with utmost care and dignity in the "compassionate treatment facility", which is a lot more than what many lawbreakers have access to on the outside. So, what I question is, will these kind of facilities not motivate people to break laws instead of follow them, the ones who don't have a problem with 'privileged confinement' at least?
I think you just "put words in my mouth" -- in other words claimed that I said something that I did not say. That is sophism. Congrats. You are apparently a Sophist.

Confinement in general is definitely NOT a good law for small groups. This is because to confine someone draws away from the scarce resourced of the group.

For a small group, public shackling of some kind for public shame requires much less resources.

Confinement only works when a group has gained enough size to have enough surplusage to fund a place of confinement and to staff it full time on 3 shifts. With 1 day off that requires 4 full time officers.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by h_k_s » March 26th, 2019, 9:14 am

UchihaSasuke wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 5:19 am
h_k_s wrote:
January 28th, 2019, 11:55 pm


Scot asks some very thought provoking questions at times and this one although simplistic (perhaps for the benefit of our simplistic minds) is one. So with that in mind let's go ahead and resurrect this thread then.

Anytime you have 3 or more people together you are going to need government and politics.

And where there is government and politics there further needs to be laws.

Since any of the two individuals in our hypothetical example can overpower the third, their actions must be somehow restrained by a Constitution and a Code.

To enforce laws there needs to be justice and punishments.

What the punishments are depends on the choices that at least 2 of the 3 of them agree on.

A prison system is simply a manner of confinement. The confinement becomes the punishment.

So to cut to the chase, as British fox hunters would say, your punishment system can be whatever you agree on, whether prisons or some other form of punishment.

A cage system for these 3 isolated people with deprivation to the extent it can be borne sounds fair to me.

Banishment is the ultimate punishment. That is what the ancient Greeks and the pre-modern British used to use. That works too.

You seem to have answered the second question in my post. The mutually agreed form of punishment e.g.confinement seems an example of just law in the ideal case of the small group of people, But opposed to it the prison system(or the alternative mentioned by Scott) are applied and to be applied on a relatively humongous population, and not all of the lawbreakers are likely to have a problem with confinement till their basic requirements of food, hygiene etc are fulfilled. Added to that, they are going to be treated with utmost care and dignity in the "compassionate treatment facility", which is a lot more than what many lawbreakers have access to on the outside. So, what I question is, will these kind of facilities not motivate people to break laws instead of follow them, the ones who don't have a problem with 'privileged confinement' at least?
If you have ever visited a real prison such as with a church group, or if you have seen the documentaries on TV currently, you would see that modern American prisons are Hell on Earth.

While some ex-con's do want to go back to prison, most convicts want to be released.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by UchihaSasuke » March 26th, 2019, 12:51 pm

h_k_s wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:14 am

If you have ever visited a real prison such as with a church group, or if you have seen the documentaries on TV currently, you would see that modern American prisons are Hell on Earth.

While some ex-con's do want to go back to prison, most convicts want to be released.

Very true. And therefore, the current system does not encourage the general convict to commit crimes and visit prison again. What I suspect is that if the current system is replaced by the "compassionate treatment facilities" as described by @Scott where convicts are treated with professional care and do not have to earn the resources spent on them, then it might encourage convicts rather than dissuade them from visiting prisons on a regular basis. Do let me know what you think.

I also apologize if I misinterpreted your previous post.

-Sasuke

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by h_k_s » March 27th, 2019, 5:01 pm

UchihaSasuke wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 12:51 pm
h_k_s wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:14 am

If you have ever visited a real prison such as with a church group, or if you have seen the documentaries on TV currently, you would see that modern American prisons are Hell on Earth.

While some ex-con's do want to go back to prison, most convicts want to be released.

Very true. And therefore, the current system does not encourage the general convict to commit crimes and visit prison again. What I suspect is that if the current system is replaced by the "compassionate treatment facilities" as described by @Scott where convicts are treated with professional care and do not have to earn the resources spent on them, then it might encourage convicts rather than dissuade them from visiting prisons on a regular basis. Do let me know what you think.

I also apologize if I misinterpreted your previous post.

-Sasuke
The Europeans handle their prison populations with a lot more professionalism than we in the USA does, from my reading.

And their sentences in some countries are maxed at 20 years. The Norwegian mass murderer comes to mind. In the USA he would have gotten a death sentence with decades of appeals before final execution.

Someone needs to find some stat's on recidivism in the USA and in Europe to be able to compare.

That way we are not just speculating.

Speculation is only the starting point. Then you need to gather data.

Speculation is philosophy. Data gathering is science. Believing what you find out is religion.

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Re: Does Society Need Prisons?

Post by Darshan » April 5th, 2019, 11:05 pm

Earthellism states we need more prisons and mandatory death penalties. The reason is that here on earthell we live among human devils who enjoy torturing and killing human beings. We are all born as innocent human beings who are open-minded about the existence of God, a human soul and Hell. As we grow-up we learn about God and Hell and the human soul and can chose to believe in them. Many of us chose not to believe in a God and in a human soul and in a Hell and fit the trifecta of Evil. These human devils here on earthell now prey on human devils and torture and kill. We need more prisons for these human devils. More importantly our legal system cannot properly handle mass-murderers who should receive a mandatory death penalty. Placing mass-murderers in prison after they kill is NOT punishment because they get their 15 minutes of fame while they are alive. Prison for human devils who commit mass-murders is too good for them and they should qualify for a mandatory death penalty.

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