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Hong Kong and China

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Greta
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Greta » August 24th, 2019, 11:29 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 7:52 pm
Greta wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:16 pm
There is a fifty year deal that China is not honouring. Brexit Britain is divided, alone and weak, and thus powerless to stop them.

Meanwhile the US has lost its capacity to be a trusted actor on the world stage (or anywhere, seemingly) and Russia is biding its time. India and Pakistan are mostly interested in each other. The Middle East is a ruin. Europe is divided and faltering. Brazil is burning off "the lungs of the Earth" for fun and profit. Australia is committed to coal above all else and Murdoch media increasingly rules the Anglosphere.

And now there are increased indicators of a looming recession. The games are just beginning.
So, exactly what parts of the "deal" are not being honoured?
Their grievances are well publicised and I expect the throngs on the streets could explain the issues better than I could.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Sculptor1 » August 25th, 2019, 11:02 am

Greta wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 11:29 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 7:52 pm


So, exactly what parts of the "deal" are not being honoured?
Their grievances are well publicised and I expect the throngs on the streets could explain the issues better than I could.
It seems to me that China is basically no different from British rule, which also clearly prevented the people of Hong Kong from any kind of significant suffrage, and there is NOTHING in the agreement which does or could offer them the slightest comfort in that respect.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by h_k_s » August 25th, 2019, 7:33 pm

Jklint wrote:
August 24th, 2019, 8:08 pm
With everything happening now and all at once - the most deadly for the overall future of the planet being the Amazon firestorm compared to which Hong Kong and China are footnotes - I'm feeling extremely anti-social toward humans who can't ever seem to manage the catastrophes they are so prolific in creating.

What kind of low-life species throws its garbage and plastics into the oceans, its micro particles polluting even the Arctic waters catching researchers by surprise who didn't expect this to happen so suddenly? And on it goes.

Homo Sapiens have turned themselves in Homo Horribilis; an unstoppable virus toxifying and sucking the life out of the planet. This generation, more than any other in history, is doomed to be cursed by those who follow. One has to be blind and stupid to imagine technology is going to make up for what is irrevocably lost and took a billion years to create. What an honor for the human race! Any other intelligent species near or far would consider the likes of us as the mother of all F-U's.
Like the Computer said in the movie "Passengers," We're all in this together.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Mark1955 » August 26th, 2019, 5:57 am

h_k_s wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:01 pm
We were talking about current nations that have never been conquered.
No Felix clearly stated 3,000 years in his previous post and as that is roughly the period the Chinese consider the history of their nation so I'm happy with that period.

Your desire to manage the period you wish to cover does however perfectly indicate the tendency of peoples to have flexible morals about such matters, start history when it suits you and demand everything is frozen at that time. Greater Serbia, the situation in Northern Ireland [both sides], the Zionist state in Palestine, all the states you named as unconquered except the Swiss; all pick a selective time to start their view of history so that it matches their current desires.

So to return to the prime subject, Hong Kong was Chinese territory for a very long time before the UK annexed it after an unprovoked and morally very unethical [enforcing the 'right to free trade' in opium] war. The Chinese have their territory back and we have as much right to interfere in their domestic politics as we do in that of any other former colony, say the Republic of Ireland or the USA.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by h_k_s » August 26th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 5:57 am
h_k_s wrote:
August 23rd, 2019, 11:01 pm
We were talking about current nations that have never been conquered.
No Felix clearly stated 3,000 years in his previous post and as that is roughly the period the Chinese consider the history of their nation so I'm happy with that period.

Your desire to manage the period you wish to cover does however perfectly indicate the tendency of peoples to have flexible morals about such matters, start history when it suits you and demand everything is frozen at that time. Greater Serbia, the situation in Northern Ireland [both sides], the Zionist state in Palestine, all the states you named as unconquered except the Swiss; all pick a selective time to start their view of history so that it matches their current desires.

So to return to the prime subject, Hong Kong was Chinese territory for a very long time before the UK annexed it after an unprovoked and morally very unethical [enforcing the 'right to free trade' in opium] war. The Chinese have their territory back and we have as much right to interfere in their domestic politics as we do in that of any other former colony, say the Republic of Ireland or the USA.
The Japanese and the Mongols invaded China successfully and conquered parts of it.

You're not counting that however?

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Felix » August 26th, 2019, 2:19 pm

The island of Hong Kong had been under British political and cultural influence for over a century, and so its return to China created a cultural predicament. Communication is the first and most obvious issue. For the last century, Hong Kong has used a bilingual system: the citizens mostly speak Cantonese, but the official written language is English. This creates an internal language barrier because the official language of China is Mandarin. Another important cultural conflict is the nature of the justice system. Hong Kong adopted the Western system of trial by jury, but the Communist government tries criminals without a jury. Most importantly, the vast majority of Hong Kong residents think of their country as autonomous and do not wish to be ruled by the Chinese Communist party.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Sculptor1
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Sculptor1 » August 26th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Felix wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 2:19 pm
Most importantly, the vast majority of Hong Kong residents think of their country as autonomous and do not wish to be ruled by the Chinese Communist party.
Even if that were true, its a bit late to decide that. The writing has been on the wall for 150 years.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Jklint » August 26th, 2019, 7:23 pm

China is anxious to regain everything it lost to the Western Powers in the past 200 years and then some. Whatever the differences are due to long separation will be leveled. What belonged to China historically will be repatriated regardless of any negative feedback by the international community. All they can do is yell and shakes their fists and that's about it. No one's going to start a war over it or stop trading.

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Greta
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Greta » August 26th, 2019, 10:26 pm

And it's not as though the west can threaten China with punitive tariffs or sanctions any more. That option is done.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Mark1955 » August 27th, 2019, 1:39 pm

h_k_s wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 1:46 pm
Mark1955 wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 5:57 am

No Felix clearly stated 3,000 years in his previous post and as that is roughly the period the Chinese consider the history of their nation so I'm happy with that period.

Your desire to manage the period you wish to cover does however perfectly indicate the tendency of peoples to have flexible morals about such matters, start history when it suits you and demand everything is frozen at that time. Greater Serbia, the situation in Northern Ireland [both sides], the Zionist state in Palestine, all the states you named as unconquered except the Swiss; all pick a selective time to start their view of history so that it matches their current desires.

So to return to the prime subject, Hong Kong was Chinese territory for a very long time before the UK annexed it after an unprovoked and morally very unethical [enforcing the 'right to free trade' in opium] war. The Chinese have their territory back and we have as much right to interfere in their domestic politics as we do in that of any other former colony, say the Republic of Ireland or the USA.
The Japanese and the Mongols invaded China successfully and conquered parts of it.

You're not counting that however?
The Mongols conquered a lot more than parts, they ran the whole country for several hundred years; the call it the Yuan dynasty. I wasn't the one listing/cointing countries that have not been conquered so I'm not quite sure the point of the comment..
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by h_k_s » August 27th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 1:39 pm
h_k_s wrote:
August 26th, 2019, 1:46 pm


The Japanese and the Mongols invaded China successfully and conquered parts of it.

You're not counting that however?
The Mongols conquered a lot more than parts, they ran the whole country for several hundred years; the call it the Yuan dynasty. I wasn't the one listing/cointing countries that have not been conquered so I'm not quite sure the point of the comment..
We were just discussing what nations if any had never been conquered, at least not yet.

I made a list of them, supra.

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chewybrian
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by chewybrian » September 4th, 2019, 6:12 pm

There was a (possibly) important development today, as the government declared they would withdraw the extradition bill that started all the trouble. This move would probably have been effective if it took place very early on in the process. The protesters say they have four other demands which must be met before they will stop. These are:
...retraction of the word “riot” to describe rallies,

release of all demonstrators,

an independent inquiry into perceived police brutality

and the right for Hong Kong people to choose their own leaders.
The government seems to be silent on whether they intend to meet all the demands, so one might presume they do not intend to address them all yet. As an outsider (U.S.), these demands do need seem very difficult to meet. Of course, giving in on the most critical demand may tone down the nature and size of the protests. If the government maintains that they have returned to the status quo, then they may label future protests as riots and crack down harder on (presumably) smaller numbers of hardliners.

This could be the beginning of a (relatively) non-violent end to the crisis, or justification for shutting down future protests with force without addressing all the demands.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hong ... SKCN1VP05B
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Ralfy
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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Ralfy » September 4th, 2019, 11:29 pm

Here's another point to consider: Hong Kong Island was ceded to Britain after China lost the first Opium War. That war was brought about when China tried to stop Britain from smuggling opium grown in India to China. The U.S. also profited from the drug trade.

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by chewybrian » October 9th, 2019, 6:36 pm

I see two recent events that seem worthy of note.

First, Lam said in a news conference that she could not rule out asking the Chinese government for help in restoring order.
"If the situation becomes so bad, then no options could be ruled out, if we want Hong Kong to at least have another chance," Lam said at weekly news conference after a long weekend of violence crippled the city.

"But at this moment, I and my team, we are still very committed in making sure we can use our own instruments ... to try and restore calm and order in Hong Kong," she said, adding there were no plans to expand emergency laws introduced on Friday. "But I would appeal (to) everyone in society to join hands to achieve this objective."
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-ope ... 00566.html

Strangely, to me at least, saying that she does not want to do it seems to make it more likely. She appears to be making the case that she is trying to avoid military 'solutions', but also that she may have no choice. Who knows if she can even make the choice or is really only following orders?

Also, there is a big uptick in interest about Hong Kong on normally mostly news-free sites like Reddit or Imgur. This seems to have started when the GM of the Rockets NBA team tweeted "Fight For Freedom. Stand With Hong Kong." Many Chinese were big fans of the Rockets because of the past presence of Yao Ming on the team. The Chinese government got their feathers ruffled and the team distanced themselves from the GM's words. Still, Rockets games were taken off the air in China in response. They became an 'unteam'.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hous ... t-n1062796

Evidently, playing video games for money in tournaments is a big deal now. A player on a site call "Blizzard" was suspended from tournament play because he made a pro-Hong Kong comment (to be fair, they all agree ahead of time not to talk about politics. Again, the company does not want to be cut off by the Chinese government, which owns about 5% of the company. So, the kid became an 'unplayer'.
A professional videogame player was suspended for making a pro-Hong Kong comment, in another case of a U.S. multinational succumbing to the pressure of China.

The Blizzard unit of Activision Blizzard ATVI, -0.04% suspended Chung “Blitzchung” Ng Wai for a year after donning a mask and saying “liberate Hong Kong” in a post-match interview.
https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/ac ... 2019-10-08

South Park was quick to act in response to the controversy (as they always are), and quickly managed to get themselves banned from China. They are an 'unshow' now, to put it in Orwellian terms...

https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/so ... atest_news

It is odd and a bit sad that this is what it took to put the situation on some people's radar, but, hopefully increased awareness and truth-spreading will work in the favor of the citizens of Hong Kong.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Re: Hong Kong and China

Post by Felix » October 10th, 2019, 5:44 pm

Do you think the protestors are hurting their own cause by continually engaging in destructive vandalism? It seems they are goading the Chinese government to do something, can't see how that is wise.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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