Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

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UniversalAlien
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Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

First a definition of Genocide:

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
"a campaign of genocide"
Definition:
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
a. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
b. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
c. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
d. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the crime:
The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml


As we see the Russian Federation apparently under the dictatorship of Vladimir Putzin {sic} is engaged in a campaign of genocide against the people and nation of Ukraine.

Is there any legal justification for this campaign of genocide against Ukraine :?:

Or is it simply a criminal act to increase the assets and power of the Russian Federation :?:

Is Vladimir Putzin {sic} and the military that supports him guilty of War Crimes and 'crimes against Humanity' :?:

And finally is there ever a justification for Genocide :?:
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

“There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit.”
- Napoleon Bonaparte.


This time Le Petit Caporal {“The Little Corporal”} we have the World on our side - The Russian is sick, a malignant remnant of a once
great nation - The World is with us :!:
heracleitos
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by heracleitos »

When I evaluate the behavior of the military of the Russian Federation during the siege of Azovstahl in Mariupol, I see that they went to great length:

- to allow women, children, and other civilians to evacuate the battlefield, under protection of the international Red Cross.

- to get injured enemy soldiers evacuated, again by the Red Cross.

- waited patiently for remaining enemy soldiers to finally surrender.

That is certainly not genocidal behavior. In my impression, they rather avoid making civilian and even military casualties. Furthermore, it is clearly not in their political interest to commit acts of genocide. It obviously does not benefit them.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

heracleitos wrote: May 24th, 2022, 8:58 pm When I evaluate the behavior of the military of the Russian Federation during the siege of Azovstahl in Mariupol, I see that they went to great length:

- to allow women, children, and other civilians to evacuate the battlefield, under protection of the international Red Cross.

- to get injured enemy soldiers evacuated, again by the Red Cross.

- waited patiently for remaining enemy soldiers to finally surrender.

That is certainly not genocidal behavior. In my impression, they rather avoid making civilian and even military casualties. Furthermore, it is clearly not in their political interest to commit acts of genocide. It obviously does not benefit them.
Problem is this war is by definition genocide - It is an attempt to destroy Ukraine as a nation, eliminate the infrastructure of Ukraine,
and if need be kill as many Ukrainians as necessary to achieve victory :!:

Sighting one incident of Russian good behavior, is liking forgiving the Nazis of WWII because they let some Jews leave Germany
- And than began exterminating the rest :!:

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heracleitos
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by heracleitos »

UniversalAlien wrote: May 24th, 2022, 9:57 pm Sighting one incident of Russian good behavior, is liking forgiving the Nazis of WWII because they let some Jews leave Germany
For political reasons, the hierarchy of the Russian Federation seems quite keen on collaborating with credible international organizations when it concerns issues of civilian population and prisoners of war.

I expect that, for example, the Red Cross will be able to maintain close access to Ukrainian prisoners of war, as has been customary for over a century now.

In that point of view, it is much more important for international aid organizations to help the Russian leadership with avoiding human rights violations in the field by rogue military personnel, if only by being witnesses, than to criticize them for their geopolitical decisions. The Russian leadership seems to be really keen on avoiding scandalous situations.

Concerning responsibility for the war, I think that it is the West, and especially the USA, which are to blame. I share the opinion of Pope Francis in that regard:
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/artic ... 38_23.html

It is a position characterized by a total refusal of the war, calls for an end to the fighting, and requests by Pope Francis not to incriminate Vladimir Putin by name and not to place the responsibility for the conflict solely on Russia. In the same interview, Pope Francis criticizes the role of NATO, whose "barking at the gates of Russia" would have pushed the Kremlin leader to take military action.
NATO encouraged Ukraine to poke with a stick at the sleeping Russian bear, but when it woke up and started lashing out, NATO was nowhere to be seen. NATO somehow made Ukraine believe that they had their back, but they didn't. The ruling mafia in the West are treacherous liars. You cannot trust them for anything.

NATO are not friends of Ukraine. They are merely using Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

"Ukraine war: Is Russia committing genocide?"
Atrocities committed by Russian forces in Ukraine have sparked widespread accusations of war crimes - with some voices arguing that Moscow has gone even further.

"That is real genocide, what you have seen here," Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said from Bucha, where at least 500 people have been found dead since the Russians left.

Poland's Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki agrees that the killings in Bucha and other towns near the capital Kyiv "must be called acts of genocide and be dealt with as such".

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said attacks on civilians in Bucha do not "look far short of genocide".

Now US President Joe Biden has accused Russian forces of committing acts of "genocide" in Ukraine. He said Russian President Vladimir Putin was trying to "wipe out the idea" of a Ukrainian identity.
Has Russia committed genocide in Ukraine?

There is no consensus on this.

Eugene Finkel, an associate professor of international affairs at Johns Hopkins University, believes genocide is underway in Ukraine. He says there is evidence of killings, carried out in Bucha and other places, of people based on their Ukrainian identity.

"It's not just killing people, it's targeting a national identity group," he says.

However, it's the rhetoric coming from Moscow that tips over into genocidal intent, Mr Finkel says.

He points to an article titled "What should Russia do with Ukraine?" published last week by Russia's state-owned media Ria news agency.

The article argues that Ukraine "is impossible as a nation state" and even its name "apparently cannot be retained"; the Ukrainian nationalist elite "need to be liquidated, its re-education is impossible", argues the article's writer, Timofei Sergeytsev........
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61017352
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by LuckyR »

To my view, the Ukrainian war, is, of course, completely unjustifiable and therefore wrong (in concept). In practice, it involves unnecessary civilian casualties, which seems to meet the definition of certain descriptors, like genocide. Fair enough. However, it doesn't seem to be an outlier when compared to other conflicts. They all appear more similar than different.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Good_Egg »

UniversalAlien wrote: May 25th, 2022, 1:24 am He says there is evidence of killings, carried out in Bucha and other places, of people based on their Ukrainian identity.

"It's not just killing people, it's targeting a national identity group," he says.
UniversalAlien wrote: May 24th, 2022, 2:26 pm In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
...
c. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
d. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
...
And finally is there ever a justification for Genocide :?:
Frankly, if you're mass-murdering people, that's just so wrong that whether you're doing it as a way of eliminating an identity or not is pretty much irrelevant.

And if you're taking children away from their parents to raise them in a less toxic culture, that's a wrong against both children and parents because of the natural bond between parent and child. But it's a well-intentioned wrong - such an intent is a mitigating factor not an aggravating one.

The worth of a person does not lie in the group-identity of which they are an instance. Portraying an attack on that identity as the greatest crime in the world is twisted, an inversion of true values.

If you could destroy an idea - Nazism for example, or the Islamic attitude to infidels - without wronging the individuals who hold that idea, then that would be a Good Thing. It is the people who are of value, not the shared ideas they hold.
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

"Ukraine Accuses Russia Of Genocide As Shocking Images Of Casualties Surface"

See Youtube video here:

https://youtu.be/PTHbd2vSfbs
MSNBC

Ukrainian authorities on Sunday accused the departing Russian forces of committing war crimes in Bucha, a city on the outskirts of Kyiv. The Morning Joe panel discusses.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: May 24th, 2022, 2:26 pm Or is it simply a criminal act to increase the assets and power of the Russian Federation :?:
I would say it's simply a criminal act. His/their reasons for doing what they're doing aren't known to us, and don't really matter in comparison with your (reasonable) accusation of attempted genocide.


UniversalAlien wrote: May 24th, 2022, 2:26 pm And finally is there ever a justification for Genocide :?:
I would say not. I certainly can't see or imagine one.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Pattern-chaser »

heracleitos wrote: May 24th, 2022, 10:39 pm NATO encouraged Ukraine to poke with a stick at the sleeping Russian bear, but when it woke up and started lashing out, NATO was nowhere to be seen. NATO somehow made Ukraine believe that they had their back, but they didn't. The ruling mafia in the West are treacherous liars. You cannot trust them for anything.

NATO are not friends of Ukraine. They are merely using Ukraine.
NATO is a mutual alliance, and Ukraine is not a member of that alliance. So NATO is wrong to act, even as indirectly as it has. It is for the UN, not NATO, to act here, I think?
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 25th, 2022, 11:41 am
heracleitos wrote: May 24th, 2022, 10:39 pm NATO encouraged Ukraine to poke with a stick at the sleeping Russian bear, but when it woke up and started lashing out, NATO was nowhere to be seen. NATO somehow made Ukraine believe that they had their back, but they didn't. The ruling mafia in the West are treacherous liars. You cannot trust them for anything.

NATO are not friends of Ukraine. They are merely using Ukraine.
NATO is a mutual alliance, and Ukraine is not a member of that alliance. So NATO is wrong to act, even as indirectly as it has. It is for the UN, not NATO, to act here, I think?
The UN and the war in Ukraine: key information
Aggression against Ukraine
On the night of 23 to 24 February 2022, Russia launched a military offensive in Ukraine. The United Nations considers this attack to be a violation of the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. It is contrary to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
The principles of the Charter of the United Nations cannot be applied selectively. The Member States have accepted them all and they must apply them all.
On 25 February, the Secretary-General of the United Nations appointed Amin Awad of Sudan as Assistant Secretary-General to serve as United Nations Crisis Coordinator for Ukraine.

On 28 February, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court opened an investigation for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The United Nations General Assembly adopted on Wednesday 2 March a resolution deploring the “aggression” committed by Russia against Ukraine (141 votes in favour, 5 against and 35 abstentions).
The UN Human Rights Council adopted a resolution on 4 March calling for the “swift and verifiable” withdrawal of Russian troops and Russian-backed armed groups from the entire territory of Ukraine.
The UN Human Rights Council decided on 5 March to urgently establish an independent international commission of inquiry following Russia’s aggression against Ukraine.
On 16 March the International Court of Justice ordered Russia to immediately suspend its military operations in Ukraine.
On Thursday 24 March, the UN General Assembly overwhelmingly demanded civilian protection and humanitarian access in Ukraine, while also criticizing Russia for creating a “dire” humanitarian situation (140 votes in favour, 5 against and 38 abstentions).......
https://unric.org/en/the-un-and-the-war ... %20Ukraine.


"A rose is a rose is a rose"

And:

A Russian that is a war criminal is a nazi :!:

And:

The Russian military attack on Ukraine and its civilian population = A crime against Humanity :idea:
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by chewybrian »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 25th, 2022, 11:38 amI would say it's simply a criminal act. His/their reasons for doing what they're doing aren't known to us, and don't really matter in comparison with your (reasonable) accusation of attempted genocide.
UniversalAlien wrote: May 24th, 2022, 2:26 pm And finally is there ever a justification for Genocide :?:
I would say not. I certainly can't see or imagine one.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 25th, 2022, 11:41 amNATO is a mutual alliance, and Ukraine is not a member of that alliance. So NATO is wrong to act, even as indirectly as it has. It is for the UN, not NATO, to act here, I think?
You seem to say (I agree) that Russia is in the wrong and way out to the far end where we can describe their action as genocide. Keeping this in mind, the most appropriate response could be from the U.N. However, that does not mean it is inappropriate for the U.S. or the E.U. or other nations to come to the aid of Ukraine.

Often the U.N has signed off on our military action in the past (Do they usually have anything to say about sending arms? --serious question). However, as you say, this invasion rises to the level where a response is needed. I don't think the country being invaded needs to be a member of NATO for us to justify sending them military aid. I don't think the sanctions against Russia were unjustified, either. If we waited for the U.N. to form a coalition, it might be too late.

Does it seem to you that the response in this case has been unlike any other we have seen in the past? It seems so severe that Russia probably regrets their action, would not try something similar in the future, and that other countries might even be deterred from similar actions. I'm not saying we have ended war, but we seem to have made the cost unbearable for most countries, most of the time on these terms (or perhaps raised the stakes to WWIII or nothing?).
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: May 25th, 2022, 3:29 pm You seem to say (I agree) that Russia is in the wrong and way out to the far end where we can describe their action as genocide. Keeping this in mind, the most appropriate response could be from the U.N. However, that does not mean it is inappropriate for the U.S. or the E.U. or other nations to come to the aid of Ukraine.
Agreed. Individual nations, or groups of nations can and should act as they see fit. My point is only that NATO is not required to act, as Ukraine is not a member. In fact, I think that NATO should not act here, as it is outside its own legitimate scope. But the UN, or any member of NATO, acting independently, can and should act. IMO! 😉 I agree that we should send, and continue to send, military aid, but NATO should not.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia and the Philosophy of Genocide

Post by UniversalAlien »

Let's sum up what is going on in Ukraine beginning with a brief history of how and why.

The former Soviet Union collapsed on December 26, 1991 - Yet there was no great celebration, and apparently some deep
resentment held by former Communist Party members and functionaries such as the KGB.

Loyal to the end Vladimir Putin, former KGB officer, soon began his dirty work of ending this new era of 'glasnost' and World peace and understanding. Slowly but surely he worked his way up in Russian politics and is now the dictator in chief of the new Russian Federation
- Just like the good old days of Soviet dictators of the past, Putin, like Stalin from the past, decided to absorb the Ukraine with no regard to the misery, suffering and deaths he is causing.

But Putin is more than a new incarnation of Stalin - Putin is a modern Hitler - Drunk with power hunger and a snake like venom
- Vladimir Putin has become the single greatest threat to World peace and stability since Hitler :!:

Dicking around with Vladimir Putin is dangerous - Similar to the way Britain's Chamberlain bargained with Hitler before WWII
- It is futile to bargain with a power crazed mad despot bent on World domination.

Putin is such a mad man - And playing his game, his way, is suicide - It will not only not stop WWIII but will make it inevitable :!:
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