What does "People Have the Power" mean?

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UniversalAlien
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What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Stated quite eloquently here by the famous singer Patti Smith:

Choir! Choir! Choir! & Patti Smith sing "PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER" in NYC with Stewart Copeland
See it here:
https://youtu.be/y6Wz3i_BYUc


The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean :?: How can a generic people have power :?:
In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?: - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments :?:
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Alias »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am
The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean :?: How can a generic people have power :?:
In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?: - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments :?:
Presumably, the subject is restricted to political power. It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population. If that support base is still a minority, and they rule through intimidation, they cannot hold onto that power very long. Maybe a generation, then their support begins to flake away, the leaders lose resolve, and the oppressed majority begins to see their opportunity to topple that government. It doesn't mean any particular kind of government; it's true of those that govern by consent, by wealth, by fear or by persuasion.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Alias wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:05 am
UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am
The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean :?: How can a generic people have power :?:
In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?: - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments :?:
Presumably, the subject is restricted to political power. It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population. If that support base is still a minority, and they rule through intimidation, they cannot hold onto that power very long. Maybe a generation, then their support begins to flake away, the leaders lose resolve, and the oppressed majority begins to see their opportunity to topple that government. It doesn't mean any particular kind of government; it's true of those that govern by consent, by wealth, by fear or by persuasion.
Yes, but isn't that more HYPOTHESIS than FACT :?:

We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for :!:

Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power :?:

In that famous song by Patti Smith that I began this post with I think her lyrics were based upon wishful thinking
- the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules :idea:
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Moreno »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:49 am Yes, but isn't that more HYPOTHESIS than FACT :?:
When you are dealing with humans seemingly contradictory truths can exist, I think.
We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for :!:

Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power :?:
I think both are true and further that we shouldn't take all statements as containers of truth like scientific statements are intended to be. For example, this statement could be viewed as a statement trying to be self-fulfilling. That if we say this enough times, along with other sorts of communication, people might take more respnosibility, might organize, might take power where it hasn't before. And this has happened before, despite monied interests, though never enough to completely change the system. It's a doing not a containing statement. But then what do I mean by seemingly contradictory truths can exist...
I agree monied interests have the power.
But at the same time those monied interests have to convince average citizens that X and Y are fair, just, the only options, right, necessary and so on. They use a portion of their money all the time to manipulate, convince, fool average people. Because they know that if they don't do this, they have a problem. Which hints strongly that average people in fact have the power. And there are instances where nations have flipped and the monied interests were killed, impoverished, and had their power taken from them. Not that great long term solutions arose from those events, generally.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?:
To the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Good_Egg »

Alias wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:05 am It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population.
That's a good way of putting it.

What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.

We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by LuckyR »

Good_Egg wrote: December 4th, 2022, 10:16 am
Alias wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:05 am It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population.
That's a good way of putting it.

What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.

We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.
The days of one person one vote started to end with the invention of the printing press and now in the internet driven Post Truth era, is long gone. The combo of defunding public education (to create an even more gullible electorate) and the ability broadcast any ol BS to hundreds of millions with a veneer of authority for free is the reason.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Alias wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:05 am It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population.
Good_Egg wrote: December 4th, 2022, 10:16 am That's a good way of putting it.

What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.

We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.

That's a good way of putting it. 😉👍
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2022, 9:49 am
UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?:
To the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.
Isn't that classical Marxism :?: - And doesn't that tend to lead to Marx's 'dictatorship of the proletariat' :?:

Where as 'pure Democracy' might resemble anarchy - Isn't our 'bought and paid for' type of Democracy fellacious
- Not really Democratic at all, but rather a contest of 'influence peddlers' whose interests have little, if anything,
to do with Democracy :?:
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic :?:
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2022, 9:49 am To the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.
UniversalAlien wrote: December 5th, 2022, 3:50 pm Isn't that classical Marxism :?: - And doesn't that tend to lead to Marx's 'dictatorship of the proletariat' :?:

Where as 'pure Democracy' might resemble anarchy - Isn't our 'bought and paid for' type of Democracy fellacious
- Not really Democratic at all, but rather a contest of 'influence peddlers' whose interests have little, if anything,
to do with Democracy :?:

Wikipedia wrote: Democracy is a form of government in which the people have the authority to deliberate and decide legislation ("direct democracy"), or to choose governing officials to do so ("representative democracy").
Wikipedia wrote: Marxism is a left-wing to far-left method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict and a dialectical perspective to view social transformation.
Marxism? I think there is a bit of a gap between Democracy and Marxism, without criticising either of them. I'm also unclear as to the similarity between Democracy and anarchy? The connection is not obvious to me.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by ahaahoy »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
Yes, years, centuries..long history...

History evolves from a need to be collective to strengthen defense against external aggressors.
From which a leader is needed, then to set of leaders, to a king, to emperor, dictator, then to what to majority wants.

thus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"

just a thought... will not cite examples as it will be a long history :)
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by UniversalAlien »

ahaahoy wrote: December 23rd, 2022, 3:50 am
UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
Yes, years, centuries..long history...

History evolves from a need to be collective to strengthen defense against external aggressors.
From which a leader is needed, then to set of leaders, to a king, to emperor, dictator, then to what to majority wants.

thus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"

just a thought... will not cite examples as it will be a long history :)
thus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"
Supposedly and ideally :!:

But in fact isn't 'the majority' what politicians try to manipulate to their will, their goals and objectives :?:

In fact in a Democratic Republic like the United States aren't politicians manipulating people to believe what suits the
political agendas of the politicians :?:

See referring back to the initial question of the post, what does "what the majority wants" mean :?:
Does it have any meaning at all :?:
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
ahaahoy wrote: December 23rd, 2022, 3:50 am History evolves from a need to be collective to strengthen defense against external aggressors.
That seems reasonable.


ahaahoy wrote: December 23rd, 2022, 3:50 am From which a leader is needed...
Why should that be so? I don't say it doesn't happen, and I don't say that it shouldn't happen, but I do wonder if it must necessarily be the case?
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by Alias »

UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:49 am
Yes, but isn't that [no individual can rule or control the polity without the support of a substantial part of the population]more HYPOTHESIS than FACT :?:
It's more like HISTORY.
We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for :!:
Money is one way to corrupt political process, yes.
In fact, American democracy has never been what the Founding Fathers (rest their hypocritical little souls!) wrote down in their revered documents, and they were aware of it and had great big arguments over it. Pragmatism won that day, and doomed the nation.
Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power :?:
In capitalist societies, money always wields power. In feudal societies, it's land-ownership. In patriarchal societies, the old bearded guys rule; in militaristic societies, it's the generals; in theocratic societies, prelates; in monarchies, the king/queen or some very clever risk-taking courtiers.
the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules
The people are not always very good at it.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Alias wrote: December 27th, 2022, 12:07 am
UniversalAlien wrote: December 4th, 2022, 1:49 am
Yes, but isn't that [no individual can rule or control the polity without the support of a substantial part of the population]more HYPOTHESIS than FACT :?:
It's more like HISTORY.
We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for :!:
Money is one way to corrupt political process, yes.
In fact, American democracy has never been what the Founding Fathers (rest their hypocritical little souls!) wrote down in their revered documents, and they were aware of it and had great big arguments over it. Pragmatism won that day, and doomed the nation.
Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power :?:
In capitalist societies, money always wields power. In feudal societies, it's land-ownership. In patriarchal societies, the old bearded guys rule; in militaristic societies, it's the generals; in theocratic societies, prelates; in monarchies, the king/queen or some very clever risk-taking courtiers.
the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules
The people are not always very good at it.

"The people are not always very good at it." :?: :!: :?:

Yes, but who are 'the people' :?: What is meant by 'the people' :?:
People, The Reference library
Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment
Reference type: Subject Reference
Current Version: 2005
Subject: History, modern history (1700 to 1945)
Length: 4,447 words
..., The . In “the people,” the philosophers of the Enlightenment confronted a central dilemma. Their program for a world informed by critical intellect and unencumbered by undue reverence for the past had to grapple with the fact that most of the society they observed was beyond the reach of their arguments. Indeed, the author of the article Philosophe in the Encyclopédie essentially defined the people as the very opposite of that enlightened ideal: The philosophe forms his principles on the basis of an infinite number of individual observations. The...
You see the problem{s} :?:



People can not really have power unless defined - But when you define the people's power you are also setting its limits :idea:

Pure Democracy has often been defined as 'mob rule' - On the other hand the Communist People's Republic's
said 'the state' was the people's power.

I would consider the United States to be a compromise of the extremes :idea:
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