What does "People Have the Power" mean?
- UniversalAlien
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What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Choir! Choir! Choir! & Patti Smith sing "PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER" in NYC with Stewart Copeland
See it here:
https://youtu.be/y6Wz3i_BYUc
The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean How can a generic people have power
In practice is the people having power really Democratic - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Presumably, the subject is restricted to political power. It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population. If that support base is still a minority, and they rule through intimidation, they cannot hold onto that power very long. Maybe a generation, then their support begins to flake away, the leaders lose resolve, and the oppressed majority begins to see their opportunity to topple that government. It doesn't mean any particular kind of government; it's true of those that govern by consent, by wealth, by fear or by persuasion.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am
The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean How can a generic people have power
In practice is the people having power really Democratic - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments
- UniversalAlien
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Yes, but isn't that more HYPOTHESIS than FACTAlias wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 1:05 amPresumably, the subject is restricted to political power. It simply means, no individual can rule or control the polity without the support, overt or passive, of a substantial part of the population. If that support base is still a minority, and they rule through intimidation, they cannot hold onto that power very long. Maybe a generation, then their support begins to flake away, the leaders lose resolve, and the oppressed majority begins to see their opportunity to topple that government. It doesn't mean any particular kind of government; it's true of those that govern by consent, by wealth, by fear or by persuasion.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am
The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
- But what does it actually mean How can a generic people have power
In practice is the people having power really Democratic - Or like in the infamous 'Peoples Republics' of the Communists
are people having the power an excuse for totalitarian type governments
We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for
Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power
In that famous song by Patti Smith that I began this post with I think her lyrics were based upon wishful thinking
- the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
When you are dealing with humans seemingly contradictory truths can exist, I think.
I think both are true and further that we shouldn't take all statements as containers of truth like scientific statements are intended to be. For example, this statement could be viewed as a statement trying to be self-fulfilling. That if we say this enough times, along with other sorts of communication, people might take more respnosibility, might organize, might take power where it hasn't before. And this has happened before, despite monied interests, though never enough to completely change the system. It's a doing not a containing statement. But then what do I mean by seemingly contradictory truths can exist...We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for
Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power
I agree monied interests have the power.
But at the same time those monied interests have to convince average citizens that X and Y are fair, just, the only options, right, necessary and so on. They use a portion of their money all the time to manipulate, convince, fool average people. Because they know that if they don't do this, they have a problem. Which hints strongly that average people in fact have the power. And there are instances where nations have flipped and the monied interests were killed, impoverished, and had their power taken from them. Not that great long term solutions arose from those events, generally.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
To the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
That's a good way of putting it.
What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.
We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
The days of one person one vote started to end with the invention of the printing press and now in the internet driven Post Truth era, is long gone. The combo of defunding public education (to create an even more gullible electorate) and the ability broadcast any ol BS to hundreds of millions with a veneer of authority for free is the reason.Good_Egg wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 10:16 amThat's a good way of putting it.
What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.
We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Good_Egg wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 10:16 am That's a good way of putting it.
What's philosophically difficult is that advertising works. So that support can in effect be purchased by those who are wealthy enough.
We're left trying to assert both that the voters have the power and that those who fund the adverts have the power. Because decisions can be both free and influenced at the same time.
That's a good way of putting it.
"Who cares, wins"
- UniversalAlien
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Isn't that classical Marxism - And doesn't that tend to lead to Marx's 'dictatorship of the proletariat'Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 9:49 amTo the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic
Where as 'pure Democracy' might resemble anarchy - Isn't our 'bought and paid for' type of Democracy fellacious
- Not really Democratic at all, but rather a contest of 'influence peddlers' whose interests have little, if anything,
to do with Democracy
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am In practice is the people having power really Democratic
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 9:49 am To the extent that democracy is the 'dictatorship of the majority', yes, it is. 'People having the power' simply refers to the power people have when they act together.
UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 5th, 2022, 3:50 pm Isn't that classical Marxism - And doesn't that tend to lead to Marx's 'dictatorship of the proletariat'
Where as 'pure Democracy' might resemble anarchy - Isn't our 'bought and paid for' type of Democracy fellacious
- Not really Democratic at all, but rather a contest of 'influence peddlers' whose interests have little, if anything,
to do with Democracy
Wikipedia wrote: Democracy is a form of government in which the people have the authority to deliberate and decide legislation ("direct democracy"), or to choose governing officials to do so ("representative democracy").
Marxism? I think there is a bit of a gap between Democracy and Marxism, without criticising either of them. I'm also unclear as to the similarity between Democracy and anarchy? The connection is not obvious to me.Wikipedia wrote: Marxism is a left-wing to far-left method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict and a dialectical perspective to view social transformation.
"Who cares, wins"
- ahaahoy
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Yes, years, centuries..long history...UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
History evolves from a need to be collective to strengthen defense against external aggressors.
From which a leader is needed, then to set of leaders, to a king, to emperor, dictator, then to what to majority wants.
thus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"
just a thought... will not cite examples as it will be a long history
- UniversalAlien
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
ahaahoy wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2022, 3:50 amYes, years, centuries..long history...UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
History evolves from a need to be collective to strengthen defense against external aggressors.
From which a leader is needed, then to set of leaders, to a king, to emperor, dictator, then to what to majority wants.
thus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"
just a thought... will not cite examples as it will be a long history
Supposedly and ideallythus, that "people have the power" stems from centuries of "what the majority wants"
But in fact isn't 'the majority' what politicians try to manipulate to their will, their goals and objectives
In fact in a Democratic Republic like the United States aren't politicians manipulating people to believe what suits the
political agendas of the politicians
See referring back to the initial question of the post, what does "what the majority wants" mean
Does it have any meaning at all
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 12:24 am The concept of 'people having the power' goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years
That seems reasonable.
Why should that be so? I don't say it doesn't happen, and I don't say that it shouldn't happen, but I do wonder if it must necessarily be the case?
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
It's more like HISTORY.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 1:49 am
Yes, but isn't that [no individual can rule or control the polity without the support of a substantial part of the population]more HYPOTHESIS than FACT
Money is one way to corrupt political process, yes.We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for
In fact, American democracy has never been what the Founding Fathers (rest their hypocritical little souls!) wrote down in their revered documents, and they were aware of it and had great big arguments over it. Pragmatism won that day, and doomed the nation.
In capitalist societies, money always wields power. In feudal societies, it's land-ownership. In patriarchal societies, the old bearded guys rule; in militaristic societies, it's the generals; in theocratic societies, prelates; in monarchies, the king/queen or some very clever risk-taking courtiers.Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power
The people are not always very good at it.the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules
- UniversalAlien
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Re: What does "People Have the Power" mean?
Alias wrote: ↑December 27th, 2022, 12:07 amIt's more like HISTORY.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2022, 1:49 am
Yes, but isn't that [no individual can rule or control the polity without the support of a substantial part of the population]more HYPOTHESIS than FACT
Money is one way to corrupt political process, yes.We have supposedly free and democratic elections in the United States, which in fact are in only a limited sense 'free'
- Fact is they're bought and paid for
In fact, American democracy has never been what the Founding Fathers (rest their hypocritical little souls!) wrote down in their revered documents, and they were aware of it and had great big arguments over it. Pragmatism won that day, and doomed the nation.
In capitalist societies, money always wields power. In feudal societies, it's land-ownership. In patriarchal societies, the old bearded guys rule; in militaristic societies, it's the generals; in theocratic societies, prelates; in monarchies, the king/queen or some very clever risk-taking courtiers.Do people have the power in the United States or in fact does only money have the power
The people are not always very good at it.the wish that 'people' really did have the power - As opposed to the 'money talks' mentality that rules
"The people are not always very good at it."
Yes, but who are 'the people' What is meant by 'the people'
You see the problem{s}People, The Reference library
Encyclopedia of the Enlightenment
Reference type: Subject Reference
Current Version: 2005
Subject: History, modern history (1700 to 1945)
Length: 4,447 words
..., The . In “the people,” the philosophers of the Enlightenment confronted a central dilemma. Their program for a world informed by critical intellect and unencumbered by undue reverence for the past had to grapple with the fact that most of the society they observed was beyond the reach of their arguments. Indeed, the author of the article Philosophe in the Encyclopédie essentially defined the people as the very opposite of that enlightened ideal: The philosophe forms his principles on the basis of an infinite number of individual observations. The...
People can not really have power unless defined - But when you define the people's power you are also setting its limits
Pure Democracy has often been defined as 'mob rule' - On the other hand the Communist People's Republic's
said 'the state' was the people's power.
I would consider the United States to be a compromise of the extremes
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