How Ignorant Are Americans?

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Gary S
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Gary S »

Honestly, it isn't that well thought out. And it doesn't particularly deserve a reply anymore than other posts on the forum.
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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote:Honestly, it isn't that well thought out. And it doesn't particularly deserve a reply anymore than other posts on the forum.

Gary, both "thought-out" and "deserved" are subjective terms, defined according to the value system of the definer.

I reserve the right to use these words according to my own values. :)

I judged your post to be well thought out because you spent the time and effort to reply in detail, and on topic, that showed me a sincere desire to discuss the issues raised in this thread.

Many other posts on this thread did not do that, so I did not judge those deserving an answer.

We all make our own decisions here whom to respond to and whom to skip.

But I know you know all this. :wink:
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Lacewing
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Lacewing »

Elder to Gary S wrote: I judged your post to be well thought out because you spent the time and effort to reply in detail, and on topic, that showed me a sincere desire to discuss the issues raised in this thread.

Many other posts on this thread did not do that, so I did not judge those deserving an answer.
Are there not values that arise beyond one's current focus?

When several people who are clearly capable of thoughtful discourse see something in common, does it not deserve any reflection or acknowledgement at all?

Or do we prefer to skip over these repetitive bits of feedback and choose only what we want to see? How scientific is that?
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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Lacewing wrote:Are there not values that arise beyond one's current focus?
Lacewing, there are lots of values outside the topic of the thread.

They all belong in other threads that discuss them.

Now, I would be really interested in your comments about the topic of this thread: the American education system, how it affects the American citizens and, indirectly, the entire world.

It is everybody's business. :)
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Alias
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Alias »

Elder wrote:Alias, good summary for the causes of the problem.

Do you see any solution?

Or improvement?
Well, that's only part of the problem. My correspondent is particularly concerned with the democratic process, which also seemed to me in line with the Newsweek poll. Other academics are concerned about the future of the humanities in general, which are badly neglected in favour of technology and business degrees. Who will do the teaching and social work in the next generation, and the one after? How limited will people be prepared for the crises in environment, public health, social upheaval, infrastructure and energy that they're about to face? If the current elected representatives don't know how to find on a map, or pronounce the names of, countries they're bombing, what kind of foreign policy can we expect? These are most worrying matters. But that concern is directed to the university graduates - the future leaders; a relatively small minority of the population.

Problems with the public school - elementary and secondary - system include funding issues (of course) and discrepancy among states, religious influence, racism, and apathy.

What's the point of going to a crappy school and working your ass off for 12 years, just to do the same minimum wage job you've had to do on weekends for the last three years of high-school? What's the point of lining up for three days for a long-shot at some unskilled job in a factory that's just going to close and lay you off next year, when they move it to China? What's the point? Kids seek distraction, games, entertainment, one another's company, and tune out the adult world, the future which doesn't seem have any room in it for them. What's the point of trying hard and maybe getting into a state or city college, when your chances of getting a job are remote: might have to relocate, which you can't afford to do, even just to compete with the graduates of brand-name universities, and, even if you're hired, work at unpaid or underpaid internship for a year - except you're stuck with a $50,000 debt before day one? theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/0 ... ws/277325/ But, heck, Business thinks it's okay.

What about the working class? Why don't they learn how their government works and vote for change that would improve their children's opportunities? Well, for one thing, there isn't a working class anymore: the political rhetoric has swept it under the amnesia carpet - pretend there is nobody below the median who doesn't choose to be there, out of sheer laziness or cussedness. That's at least 50% of the people denied a political presence. And they know it. So they've largely given up. Why bother learning how the system is supposed to work, if it's never going to work for me?

I have no idea how the problem of massive indifference can be overcome. Not without serious political reform, and I don't see that coming any time soon.
After all, the US made a tiny improvement on the health care front, so now only about 41 million Americans (13%) live without health insurance, instead of the previous 57 million (18%).
I don't know what the present administration has done, or tried to do, in education. Mr. Obama used to talk about it with great enthusiasm - and good sense - in the early days of his administration, but I haven't heard much lately. I stopped watching news out of Michigan (Somebody shot somebody; a truck skidded into something; another business burned; Detroit is up for auction - it gets so depressing!) There hasn't been anything notable on the Daily Show and PBS keeps running old music concerts and Antiques Roadshows in prime time; informative programs only late at night. This is one thing the government - governments at all levels - could do: finance public television an radio. It's something people could demand. Even if they had to shout down the FUX chorus to be heard.

I don't see much hope of the next federal administration addressing the problem. The state governments have lots of leeway; for all I know, some of them may be innovating wonderfully well. That's similar to the situation in Canada: so much is under provincial jurisdiction that we have disparities between regions. Biggest, most ubiquitous, most intractable issue: funding. Year to year budgeting is a nightmare at every level. If a board of education could count on an stable financial backing from its government(s), for say, a ten-year block at a time, it could make long-term plans, try out new programs, hire and train teachers - show measurable results.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote: Concerning the quote that you attributed to your American friend:
Elder wrote:the American friend I wrote about in a previous post said “there is no poverty in America”
Is that an actual quote of what he said? Or are you paraphrasing? And perhaps there was some context that you left out?
Just a quick reply to this, Gary:

These were his exact words:
As I sit here on my back porch, I am watching my neighbors go about their daily business. No abject poverty there. I expand my view (mentally) out about 15 miles to the surrounding lands and town to the west. No abject poverty there. I expand the diameter to 50 miles which includes the large metropolitan area to the north... still no abject poverty. Expand to 200 miles... nope, still none. I pretty much have to expand all the way to third world countries before I see abject poverty. Someone will have to convince me of the so-called poverty that exists in the country I live in.
My underline.

And Misty, I did not betray any confidence by quoting this, because this was quoted from a public post on another public forum, so you can relax and take this one off my rap sheet! :wink:

Of course poverty is a relative term and it depends on context.

Compared to some third world countries most Americans are well off. However, the quoted exchange was in the context of North America and, in that context, it was a hair raising statement to make. I attributed it to colossal level of ignorance regarding American reality.

PS. If you do agree with the quoted and underlined statement, I suggest you read "Pay the Rent or Feed the Kids" by Mel Hurtig . That book was written in the context of Canadian society, the poor of which country are way better off than the poverty stricken Americans occupying places like Watts near LA, or Harlem in New York. I know, I have seen both!
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Gary S
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Gary S »

Elder wrote:Compared to some third world countries most Americans are well off.
And that was the context.
Elder wrote:However, the quoted exchange was in the context of North America and, in that context, it was a hair raising statement to make.
You are being overly dramatic. Someone stated that there are millions of victims of capitalism at home. Someone objected. Then someone suggested to google on "poverty in America." And then someone googled "poverty in Africa." The differences between poverty in America and poverty in Africa are two very very different things. That was the context and I doubt that you did not grasp this.
Elder wrote:I attributed it to colossal level of ignorance regarding American reality.
I would contribute the difference in perception to a disagreement on how poverty is defined rather than to a "colossal level of ignorance" on your friend's part. For example, do a google search on "starving children in America" and then on "starving children in Africa" and you will see a stark contrast. If someone rejects defining poverty as making below X amount of dollars, that does not make them colossally ignorant. And the converse is also true. If someone accepts defining poverty as making below X amount of dollars, that does not make them colossally knowledgeable. Please see:

http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc10_eng.pdf
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Okisites
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Okisites »

Those who have better thinking power, will be more likely have less memory.

Those who will have less memory are more likely to be seen as ignorants, and those who have more memory are more likely to be seen as intelligents.

Those who will have less thinking power(data processing powers) are more likely to be seen as intelligents, and those who have more thinking powers are more likely to be seen as stupids.

But imo, those who have more thinking powers, are more intelligent and very less ignorants or stupids, though they seems stupids and ignorants. I am very sure who seems knowledgeable are the most ignorants. The new ideas, inventions, discoveries always comes from the people who have more thinking powers, may be with less memorizing powers, and thats why you use and utilize the things brought forth by the people who have more ignorant, seems more stupids, as they have more thinking powers and the ability to go out of the box and bring forth the new ideas, not just learned and memorized information.

That's my idea, actually. I also use to call americans (US) stupids, and laugh on them, but I know what the stupids means, as I am one of them, I believe.

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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote: If someone accepts defining poverty as making below X amount of dollars, that does not make them colossally knowledgeable.
How about defining poverty as having to choose between paying the rent (have a roof over the head) or feeding the kids?

Seems pretty straightforward definition -- and plenty of examples for that in NA. (See the book I recommended in my previous post).

The underlined statement in the quote:
Someone will have to convince me of the so-called poverty that exists in the country I live in.
is indefensible, in whatever context is dragged out by its hair. To a mother who can't manage to do both (feed the kids and pay the rent) it is little comfort to be told that African poverty is way worse.
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Jklint
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Jklint »

Alias wrote:Biggest, most ubiquitous, most intractable issue: funding. Year to year budgeting is a nightmare at every level. If a board of education could count on an stable financial backing from its government(s), for say, a ten-year block at a time, it could make long-term plans, try out new programs, hire and train teachers - show measurable results.
I couldn't agree less. It would only serve - which doesn't include everywhere - to bloat the corruption, self-interest and hypocrisy of the teaching profession. Always throwing more funds at a problem only serves to exacerbate it and increase the inherent inefficiencies along with incessant demands for more to make up for it. Not least, this 'default' methodology effectually procrastinates solutions. Most Boards of Education require an education of their own to properly utilize the funding allotted to them. Do you really think that if granted a 10 year stipend they wouldn't come along in a much foreshortened period and like Oliver Twist ask for "more please"?
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Alias »

[quote="Jklint'] Always throwing more funds at a problem only serves to exacerbate it and increase the inherent inefficiencies along with incessant demands for more to make up for it. Not least, this 'default' methodology effectually procrastinates solutions. Most Boards of Education require an education of their own to properly utilize the funding allotted to them. Do you really think that if granted a 10 year stipend they wouldn't come along in a much foreshortened period and like Oliver Twist ask for "more please"?[/quote]
All right. You can't trust the boards of education to devise programs. You can't trust teachers to use their resources properly. What's the alternative? Who is qualified to decide how much should be spent on what?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote:Another concern is the surveys themselves. One of the polls cited in the article was of 1000 Americans. In a country of approximately 320 million inhabitants, 1000 people cannot by any stretch of the imagination be claimed to be representative. The margin for error would be huge. Of course, there are numerous questions about the methods and validation of all the cited surveys.

.....

In post #11, Elder linked to a webpage with a report entitled “Poor U.S. Test Results Tied to Weak Curriculum.” The article discussed the current state of education in the United States. Interestingly, the purpose of the website is to promote the disbanding of the public school system and contract education to a private-sector free market capitalistic school system. Everyone okay with that?
Another partial reply to Gary:

In the link I provided, the article describes the basis of the survey:
Math and science offer the only common basis for comparing American schools to the rest of the world. Other subjects vary from one country to another. Results of the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) involving a half-million students in 41 countries are authoritative. Oversight groups included not only the world's leading experts on comparative studies of education systems, but also experts in assessment design and statistical analysis.
My underline.

That answers the first part of what I quoted by Gary.

To answer the second part: Do you dispute their data? Because that is the only relevant point in my linking that article. What he recommends is irrelevant as far as the accuracy of the data is concerned.
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Gary S
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Gary S »

Concerning hunger in the United States: There are equally defensible positions on both sides of the political argument. And you do realize it is a political argument? The data is suspect. The motives are suspect. The news reports are suspect. Assumptions are made. Definitions are manipulated. Data is misconstrued. There is profit to be made. Please see:

https://mises.org/library/america-struggling-hunger

The scientific method gets trampled by emotion. Discussions become confrontations. Anger and drama ensues. Accusations are made. Positions are misrepresented. Personalities clash. Philosophy suffers.
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Elder
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote: The data is suspect. The motives are suspect. The news reports are suspect. Assumptions are made. Definitions are manipulated. Data is misconstrued. There is profit to be made. Please see:

https://mises.org/library/america-struggling-hunger
Why then, prey tell me, you made another link, if you can't trust anyone and anything? :?

PS. I don't need to see reports to believe in hunger. I have sen it with my own eyes! :(
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Gary S
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Re: How Ignorant Are Americans?

Post by Gary S »

To show that other positions exist.
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