Money - a blessing or a curse?

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Elder
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Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Elder »

Money, as concept, is so deeply ingrained in the minds of human beings in our time, that it is almost impossible to discuss it rationally, logically, with an open mind.

I know because I have tried it on several forums with very little success.

The Zeitgeist movement and philosophy comes closest that I have seen to date in discussing a moneyless society (resource-based economy), but it has its problems too.

In trying to discuss money, we have to go back to basic principles and analyze the meaning and role of money in our modern lives and take stock: is it a blessing or a curse?

How do you see the balance sheet?

Never mind whether it is possible to implement a moneyless society, from where we are now, but think about both the advantages and disadvantages money gives us today.

Let me know what you think.

For those who have the patience (and leisure) to read long blogs, here is one that I wrote several years ago (and posted on many forums): goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/7555991 ... e-of-money
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
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AbbasZetta
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by AbbasZetta »

I am sorry to say, but your article lacks scientific and philosophical rigor. It looks like a Randian rant.

It seems to me as if you are confusing 'money' with the modern 'money is power' paradigm. Money as a tool has proven to be very vital for economic systems. If you want to prove your point, you could do it by demonstrating a society, theoretically, which is moneyless, and how it manages to solve problems that money has so easily solved, for instance the problem of the double coincidence of wants, or lack of a standard unit of account, or impossibility of subdivision of goods, etc.
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Ruskin »

It depends if you like civilization as we know it or hunting and gathering in a small tribal band with stone age technology. To answer the question it's kind of a mixture of both like most things in life are.
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Elder
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Elder »

AbbasZetta wrote: It looks like a Randian rant.
That's very funny, unless it is a typo and you meant: anti-Randian rant! :lol:

The last line in the essay, that you obviously didn't read through, is:
"Ayn Rand in her big speech about money in Atlas Shrugged said: “money or guns – make your choice”.

We did. Now we have both.
I should have warned potential critics that MAJOR thinking outside the box is required. :wink:
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Alias »

Neither blessing nor curse: a human invention. Convenient to use; far too easy to corrupt.

While there had to be some standard medium of exchange, salt, onyx, cowrie shells, copper, flint, beads and cattle all worked for the peoples who used them. Gold coins worked - a little harder for the emperor who minted them than for the traders who exchanged the goods and services, and least diligently for the workers who provided the goods and services. Bank notes worked very effectively for the banker who lent them, quite well for the industrialist who invested them in enterprise, fairly well for the professionals who received them for services, and least for the miners and peasants onto whom a few trickled down in exchange for all the labour that produced all the goods. Are we seeing a trend yet? Now that there is electronic money, it works royally for the currency speculator; munificently for the investment banker, very well for the corporate shareholder .... and has to now to pass at least four layers of skim before any of it gets to any person who contributes anything useful to the economy.

But is money still needed when electronic transactions are possible? The opportunity for theft is greater than ever. The quantities of money to be stolen are greater than ever. Maybe it's time to invent something that works better for a larger percent of the productive population?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Elder
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Elder »

Alien, are you familiar with the Zeitgeist movement and philosophy, discussing a moneyless society (resource-based economy)?

I am curious: what do you think about it? :?:
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Sy Borg
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Sy Borg »

I reckon that horse bolted sometime ago, Elder. There is no going back to a "blank slate" from which to start a post-money society; it would start with previously entrenched advantages.

One day the financial system - like all systems - will break down. In such a post-money world those with the most powerful allies and who control armies will be the leaders. Most likely those people will come from the same circles as our current corporate and governmental leaders.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Alias »

But once the nation-states that issue and underwrite the currencies have broken down, how will the armies be paid? Unpaid armies are notoriously disloyal. And, of course, the bullets and rations still have to be produced by somebody who knows how, in relative security, and their farms and factories need to be maintained.

Yes, I've heard of the Zeitgeist movement. I think they have a good idea, and some - more than you'd imagine! - intelligent, enthusiastic adherents, but no political clout. It would be interesting to see a model resource-based city in operation, though I'm not sure I'd want to live in anything quite so ... symmetrical.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfKXbvA5T8 No theoretical or technical reason it couldn't work. The obstacles are political and pathological.

-- Updated July 3rd, 2015, 10:00 pm to add the following --

google.ca/search?q=venus+project+pictur ... mp;bih=698
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Sy Borg
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Sy Borg »

Put it this way, whomever has access to the most resources and control over the most firepower ultimately calls the shots, no matter what the system.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Elder »

Greta wrote:I reckon that horse bolted sometime ago, Elder. There is no going back to a "blank slate" from which to start a post-money society; it would start with previously entrenched advantages.
Greta, you didn't quite answer my question.

In the OP I asked:
Never mind whether it is possible to implement a moneyless society, from where we are now, but think about both the advantages and disadvantages money gives us today.
I have always said that we need to know the best solution, however impractical, in order to know the best possible solution.

We need a compass to decide which direction we want to go.

Once we know -- if we know -- that maintaining the monetary system costs more than it is worth then, maybe, we can try to work out an interim, transitional solution from today's insanity toward tomorrow's sanity.

That is what I was trying to do in that essay that Alias quoted in the thread: "Proposal for a new social contract".

If you haven't seen it yet, take a look: onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtop ... amp;t=7667
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Elder
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Elder »

Alias wrote: No theoretical or technical reason it couldn't work. The obstacles are political and pathological.
If, by saying 'pathological', I assume you mean people's inability to think outside the given box that has been rammed down their throats from their birth on.

However, you would assume that on a philosophical forum there would be more interest in exploring unconventional ideas and analyzing the issues, using fundamental principles and the defining essence of the topic at hand.

So, why isn't any more interest in this subject?

Come on, philosophers, have at it! :lol:

PS. On another forum, someone who opposed my idea of a moneyless society stated, with a straight face, that: "without money we wouldn't know if we needed a new generating station or a new farm equipment factory.

I translated this to: "without money, we wouldn't know if we were cold or we were hungry!

We used to know it for tens of thousands of years without money, but now we need money to tell us!
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Sy Borg
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Sy Borg »

Elder wrote:
Greta wrote:I reckon that horse bolted sometime ago, Elder. There is no going back to a "blank slate" from which to start a post-money society; it would start with previously entrenched advantages.
Greta, you didn't quite answer my question.

In the OP I asked:
Never mind whether it is possible to implement a moneyless society, from where we are now, but think about both the advantages and disadvantages money gives us today.
I have always said that we need to know the best solution, however impractical, in order to know the best possible solution.

We need a compass to decide which direction we want to go.

Once we know -- if we know -- that maintaining the monetary system costs more than it is worth then, maybe, we can try to work out an interim, transitional solution from today's insanity toward tomorrow's sanity.

That is what I was trying to do in that essay that Alias quoted in the thread: "Proposal for a new social contract".

If you haven't seen it yet, take a look: onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtop ... amp;t=7667
Elder, if you want an ideal solution, no matter how impractical, then it would be a system where all people cared enough to help each other and not to exploit or mooch - a society of complete deserved and earned trust.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Alias »

Greta wrote:Put it this way, whomever has access to the most resources and control over the most firepower ultimately calls the shots, no matter what the system.
Just saying, when it breaks down, there is no system. No money, no firepower, no elite, no control. Settlements of farmers with palisades all around; roving bands of 'masterless men' looking for a free lunch. What always happens after civil wars and major imperial collapses. Pretty soon, people re-coalesce under the leadership of the most able. Not the most aggressive, because they need to sustain themselves and families, and that requires skills, land, stability. The meanest bandits kill one another off; the rest grow weary and lonely and hire out as guards to a settlement with a bath-house, marry a widow with two sons....

Being in possession of a copper mine does you no good unless you can trade it for barley. It starts again with barter.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Londoner »

Elder
In trying to discuss money, we have to go back to basic principles and analyze the meaning and role of money in our modern lives and take stock: is it a blessing or a curse?
Well, perhaps you first should tell us what you think these basic principles are, and the results of your own analysis.

Because I'm not sure I would agree with that analysis. For example, looking at your blog I have a problem with paragraphs like this one:
If I have a billion dollars in the bank (or under the mattress) and never use it, I am poor. What makes me rich is not a figure on a sheet of paper or in a computer’s memory chips. What makes me rich is my share of the communally-produced cache of goods. The house I live in, the car I drive, the quantity and quality of food I eat, the clothes I wear, the neighborhood I can afford to live in, the school I send my kids to, the vacations I take. That is what makes me rich or poor, not the money I own.
You understand that the value of the billion dollars is that it can be exchanged for all the things you list i.e. goods and services that are sold for dollars. The total number of dollars and the total goods and services tradeable for dollars are the same thing. Your own dollars are your share of the communally-produced cache of goods.

You can tell this if you have currency issued by a defunct state. Because there are no goods and services being produced by Nazi Germany or the Confederate States, the money used by those states now has no value (not as money, though it might as an object of interest to collectors).

And if the US government gave everybody one extra dollar for every dollar they had, there would be no change. The value of all those dollars would just fall by 50%, because that pool of dollar-buyable goods and services - and each person's share in that pool - remained the same.

A later paragraph reads:
Money serves as the greatest con of all time.
But you do not say in what respect. So, I think you need to make your case a bit more clearly before we can discuss it.
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Re: Money - a blessing or a curse?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Elder, is there any other convenient way to store value and exchange goods and services that does not have the downsides of money? I'm not sure there is. If anyone has any such alternative I'd love to hear about it.
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