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Should the UK leave the European Union?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by ThomasHobbes » September 13th, 2018, 5:31 pm

Eduk wrote:
September 6th, 2018, 6:38 pm
Thomas. Just to be super clear.
1. People get their information from msm.
2. Msm is all equivalent to mein kampf.
3. It is obviously all equivalent to mein kampf.
4. So presumably, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you are saying is that people are too flawed to realise this obvious thing?
Childish, moronic, head in sand straw man.

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » September 13th, 2018, 7:03 pm

Please give me a non childish example of calling someone a moron?
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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 3:55 am

So, yesterday was an eventful day in the two year long slow motion car crash which is Brexit. As of this morning it's looking like Michael Gove is going to turn down the offer of Brexit Secretary to replace Dominic Raab. Theresa May is absolutely adamant that the plan won't be changed, even though it seems extremely unlikely to get through parliament. Jacob Rees-Mogg has written to the chairman of the 1922 committee to seek a no-confidence vote in May. A possible Tory leadership election to follow. "Crashing out" without a deal in March seems ever more likely, and the markets are reflecting that. The pound has plunged against the euro. Businesses are continuing to make their plans for the worst. The workers, particularly in the north of England, who voted for Brexit in such large numbers are now getting closer and closer to seeing the adverse effects of this whole mess on their jobs.

How about another referendum with 3 choices:

1. Theresa May's deal.
2. No deal.
3. No Brexit.

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 4:13 am

Actually TM seems to be attempting to get the best deal she can reasonably get from the EU. Which is to remain in but lose all powers of influence. My opinion of her has gone up slightly.
The political backlash is interesting.
I was watching parliament for a while before I became depressed with the innane questions and non answers.
People do so love a narrative and the narrative seemed to be that it was a terrible deal even though no one once said anything interesting about why it was a bad deal.
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Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 4:15 am

Oh and I don't think there should be another referendum.
I think all the major parties should put out a joint statement that we are a representative democracy and none of the parties will leave the EU.
And then ignore the whole debacle and get on with doing nothing like normal.
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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 4:25 am

I too can't help feeling a kind of admiration for Theresa May's sheer dogged staying power, regardless of the quality of the deal.
...no one once said anything interesting about why it was a bad deal.
I think the "hard Brexiters" like Rees-Mogg would disagree. In parliament yesterday, Rees-Mogg quoted specific sections from the document that he claims go back on manifesto commitments re Brexit. I haven't personally had time to try to properly examine the claims and counter-claims yet.

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 4:36 am

I'd be interested to read those claims from Rees-Mogg.
As I understand it the conservatives wanted to remain so had no leave manifesto?
And the leave campaign was just random nonsense. Like they are promising round squares and TM is failing to deliver.
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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 5:56 am

For me, the central lie of the Leave Campaign was the notion that the UK is such a large powerful country that the rest of the EU needs us far more than we need them, and that therefore negotiations would be easy. We could, they claimed, just demand that the EU capitulate to our terms. They'd be begging us for a deal on any terms.

Their current narrative, that the mess is the fault of our incompetent negotiators, simply doesn't work. If it was going to be as easy as they claimed it would be then no government, no matter how incompetent, could have messed it up.

Meanwhile, the evidence seems to suggest that the British people are as baffled and divided by the whole thing as ever. In polls, there now appears to be a small majority in favour of staying in the EU, but it's based on nothing more substantial than the original small majority in favour of leaving.

There could scarcely be a more perfect illustration of the concerns expressed by Plato's parable of the ship.

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 6:44 am

Meanwhile, the evidence seems to suggest that the British people are as baffled and divided by the whole thing as ever.
Sadly this is true. Every time I hear a politician (or anyone) claiming to 'know what the people voted for' I die a little.
Their current narrative, that the mess is the fault of our incompetent negotiators, simply doesn't work.
It seems to be working quite well.
For me, the central lie of the Leave Campaign was the notion that the UK is such a large powerful country that the rest of the EU needs us far more than we need them
For me the central lie was that we don't need experts. That people should trust themselves.
Fact is that after we leave the EU 'we' still won't actually know what the result was.
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Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi » November 16th, 2018, 7:55 am

Steve, the UK is a large and powerful member of the EU. So much so that our leaving will damage the EU. So much is the UK a large and powerful member of the EU that by leaving it we will be damaging our own real and active ability to guide and advise the EU.

It's very likely true that a lot of Brexiters, probably the older people, are jingoists. However most Brexiters will have voted to leave the EU because of lies told them about how they will be materially better off without Europe.

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 9:28 am

However most Brexiters will have voted to leave the EU because of lies told them about how they will be materially better off without Europe.
I doubt that. I don't have any empirical evidence to prove for what reason people voted (and you don't either). But I highly doubt the accuracy of your statement. What makes you so confident?
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Gertie
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Gertie » November 17th, 2018, 10:54 am

Been enjoying watching the Tories implode over this!

It's not a terrible WA in the circs, mostly more can kicking really, so they can have something they can sign in March and rubberstamp Brexit. But everybody realises the Parliamentary vote is their best chance to stop Brexit, or take charge of it, so this is the natural opportunity to do battle.

Anything could still happen, from No Deal to No Brexit, it's bonkers.

Best poss end scenario, Tories self-destruct and PM Jez concedes 2nd ref is the only way to break the impasse, and we stay in. Could happen... :D

Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 18th, 2018, 1:19 pm

Gertie wrote:Anything could still happen, from No Deal to No Brexit, it's bonkers.
So it seems, right now.
Best poss end scenario, Tories self-destruct and PM Jez concedes 2nd ref is the only way to break the impasse, and we stay in. Could happen... :D
At this stage, yes, it looks like it could. The hardline Brexiters regard the deal on offer right now as worse than not leaving at all.

I was amused by a headline I just skimmed over which said "Are we risking a Hotel California Brexit?"

I didn't read the story, but I presume the line from that song that they're thinking of is "you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."

Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 18th, 2018, 1:21 pm

Either that or they just think it will result in our entire economy being burnt to the ground and Trump blaming it on bad forestry management.

Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 » November 19th, 2018, 10:27 am

Apparently, Scottish MPs are now urging Jeremy Corbyn to join forces with the SNP in pushing for a new referendum ("People's Vote") on the terms of Brexit, which will include the option to remain in the EU.

There would be a funny kind of symmetry to that.

David Cameron didn't want to leave the EU but he caused a referendum that resulted in the vote to leave.

Jeremy Corbyn does want to leave the EU, but he could cause a referendum that, if current polls are to be believed, will result in a vote to remain.

That would be quite funny.

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