Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi wrote:It's been suggested (sorry I cannot give a reference to it but it's in Guardian today maybe yesterday I think) that David Cameron should have discovered that popular feelings about personal identity are much more significant to voting patterns than are party allegiances
Anecdotally, it seems to me that party allegiances are themselves one of the factors that contribute to many people's personal identity. But because they're only one of the factors, others can take precedence. In the UK, regional identifies can, in my experience, often take precedence. Especially for people from Yorkshire!
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Steve3007 wrote: December 12th, 2018, 1:10 pm
Belindi wrote:It's been suggested (sorry I cannot give a reference to it but it's in Guardian today maybe yesterday I think) that David Cameron should have discovered that popular feelings about personal identity are much more significant to voting patterns than are party allegiances
Anecdotally, it seems to me that party allegiances are themselves one of the factors that contribute to many people's personal identity. But because they're only one of the factors, others can take precedence. In the UK, regional identifies can, in my experience, often take precedence. Especially for people from Yorkshire!
I might have added that not only regional identities but also social class identities, or North/South identities, cause people to vote as we do in a simplistic referendum vote.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Belindi wrote:I might have added that not only regional identities but also social class identities, or North/South identities, cause people to vote as we do in a simplistic referendum vote.
Yes, we humans are tribal. We take great comfort from feeling that we're supporting a team and are surrounded by like-minded people. And because we're also very visually oriented we often tend to think that if other people look like us they must also think like us.

A while ago I went to a UKIP meeting near my home town that was chaired by Nigel Farage, to try to get a sense of whether there was a "type" of person that goes to such meetings. Obviously one "type" of person that goes to such meetings is therefore me! But others that I spoke to there gave the impression that they took great comfort from the belief that they were, in that meeting, surrounded by like-minded comrades. When I told them that I wasn't actually a UKIP supporter, they seemed surprisingly unsettled. It didn't seem to occur to them that anyone but those who have already been converted would attend such a meeting.

I think one of the most important lessons that travel and mixing with strangers can teach us humans is that it's possible to be in the presence of people who think differently to oneself about various subjects (and who look different from oneself) and not have to fight with them about it.
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Steve wrote:
I think one of the most important lessons that travel and mixing with strangers can teach us humans is that it's possible to be in the presence of people who think differently to oneself about various subjects (and who look different from oneself) and not have to fight with them about it.
This is completely okay only if one is wearing a professional hat, such as medic, sociologist, reporter, or anthropologist. Otherwise I oppose and would actively oppose , some ideologies (that includes religions) and some traditional customs. You attended the Farage meeting in the role of observer which is bound to be objective as possible.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

So, anyway, it's looking more and more likely that there will have to be a third referendum so that the people can decide what to do, given that parliament can't. First one in 1975. Second in 2016. Third in 2019?
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk »

See representative democracy works perfectly.
Unknown means unknown.
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: December 10th, 2018, 2:57 pmWould you say that local identities such as Geordie, Borders, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or West Country are more important to individuals than British, Labour, or Conservative?
I think that depends on the reason you'd be appealing to the identity. The Scots and Welsh think they're committed to their nations right up until you expect them to give England it's money back. Within England I don't think many would vote for a regional separatist party; however turn up in an area with a 'foreign' regional accent and you might well see some fairly blatant discrimination against you.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Mark1955 wrote: December 21st, 2018, 8:22 am
Belindi wrote: December 10th, 2018, 2:57 pmWould you say that local identities such as Geordie, Borders, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or West Country are more important to individuals than British, Labour, or Conservative?
I think that depends on the reason you'd be appealing to the identity. The Scots and Welsh think they're committed to their nations right up until you expect them to give England it's money back. Within England I don't think many would vote for a regional separatist party; however turn up in an area with a 'foreign' regional accent and you might well see some fairly blatant discrimination against you.
When I introspect about who I identify with, that's to say who I think are trustworthy and true, I find that I identify with that class of person who is politically leftish, well informed, and not very rich, no matter what their nationality, sex, age, formal education, and so on are. I am Scottish and I don't know why Scots feel more European than than do English people.
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Belindi wrote: December 21st, 2018, 10:38 amI am Scottish and I don't know why Scots feel more European than than do English people.
I think, deservedly or not, most English people think they know, right or not, what being English means. Too many Scots I know only seem to be able to define being Scottish as anti-English/anti union. Gordon Brown certainly didn't seem to have a definition of British despite the fact he claimed to be running the country. Maybe you hoped Europe would give you a better sense of positive identity although it would be interesting to see how long it took before the shine wore off. Like Ireland you want independence, then you join a supranational body that's avowed aim is 'even closer union'. I think this genuinely puzzles some English people.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Belindi wrote: December 21st, 2018, 10:38 amWhen I introspect about who I identify with, that's to say who I think are trustworthy and true, I find that I identify with that class of person who is politically leftish, well informed, and not very rich, no matter what their nationality, sex, age, formal education, and so on are.
Maybe because I'm a little bit autistic and don't fit easily into anyone's 'team' all I want is honesty and effort and while I won't 'identify with you' you get my respect and effort [I've learned the hard way you mostly don't want my honesty].
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Mark1955 wrote:The Scots and Welsh think they're committed to their nations right up until you expect them to give England it's money back.
What money do the Scots and Welsh owe the English?
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Mark1955 wrote: December 21st, 2018, 5:35 pm
Belindi wrote: December 21st, 2018, 10:38 amI am Scottish and I don't know why Scots feel more European than than do English people.
I think, deservedly or not, most English people think they know, right or not, what being English means. Too many Scots I know only seem to be able to define being Scottish as anti-English/anti union. Gordon Brown certainly didn't seem to have a definition of British despite the fact he claimed to be running the country. Maybe you hoped Europe would give you a better sense of positive identity although it would be interesting to see how long it took before the shine wore off. Like Ireland you want independence, then you join a supranational body that's avowed aim is 'even closer union'. I think this genuinely puzzles some English people.
I have lived in Scotland a lot and was born and brought up there and have never actually met
Too many Scots I know only seem to be able to define being Scottish as anti-English/anti union.
such anybody like that although I have heard about them as the sort of rowdies who write not very artistic graffiti on walls.

I don't want independence for Scotland and I think that passports being shown at the top of Carter Bar is a ludicrous image. Being European does indeed give me a nice feeling of identity with Continental friends. The Auld Alliance still affects many Scottish and French people.
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by h_k_s »

Steve3007 wrote: December 12th, 2018, 1:10 pm
Belindi wrote:It's been suggested (sorry I cannot give a reference to it but it's in Guardian today maybe yesterday I think) that David Cameron should have discovered that popular feelings about personal identity are much more significant to voting patterns than are party allegiances
Anecdotally, it seems to me that party allegiances are themselves one of the factors that contribute to many people's personal identity. But because they're only one of the factors, others can take precedence. In the UK, regional identifies can, in my experience, often take precedence. Especially for people from Yorkshire!
Last I checked, Roger Scruton our most eminent British modern philosopher agrees with BREXIT.
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

I would not praise Roger Scruton!
Jklint
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Jklint »

With the high probability that the EU may "dismember" itself in the not too distant future, Brexit may simply be a precursor to that event. The success or failure of Brexit may be established on what the EU eventually does to itself, likely, as it seems at this time, a slow demise leading to dissolution. The gravitational pull of Germany is not enough to keep failing member countries in orbit. At this point no one knows except the consequences immediately applicable to the UK.
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