Should the UK leave the European Union?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

People from outside the UK and the rest of Europe might be surprised to learn that the damage caused by Brexit is still rumbling on and will do so for years to come. Here are some of the things that Brexit supporting UK politicians said to fool us into voting for it over 4 years ago:

Liam Fox:
"Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history."

Michael Gove:
"The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want."

John Redwood:
"Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards."

The UK left the EU at the end of January this year and we had until the end of this year to negotiate a post-Brexit trade deal. The most recent empty threat by the UK Prime Minister to walk away from trade negotiations unless he got what he wanted expired last Thursday. The EU said "Fine. Walk away then.".

If we hold all the cards, why does the EU appear to be playing some of their cards? In Kent, where I live, we're preparing for the backlog of stationary lorries that are going to fill the roads after the end of this year due to the extra bureaucracy caused by Brexit. The UK newspaper, the Express, recently ran with this headline:

"Trade deal signed! UK agrees ANOTHER major agreement - are you watching, Brussels?"

The trade agreement being trumpeted here was with the Ivory Coast (you had to read down a bit to find that out). That's a country whose trade with the UK is worth about 0.1% of its trade with the EU, and with which, as members of the EU, we already had a trade deal. (The main task of post-Brexit trade deals is to try to get back to the trade position we were in before leaving.)


Does anybody, despite all of this and despite the immense economic cost of Brexit, piled on top of Covid, still think that Brexit was a good idea?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

(Spoiler alert: I'm a "remoaner".)
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Should the UK leave the European Union?

Yeah. Oven Ready baby!!
Wait - we still in?
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Arjen »

The EU is using it's power to hurt the UK out of spite. You should find trade in Scandinavia, for example. Plus, we are talking about a Nexit. We'll be wanting to trade.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

The EU is using it's power to hurt the UK out of spite.
What power? It doesn't hold any cards. We hold them all. Michael Gove told me so.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Arjen »

You know that what they are doing is unreasonable. The rich countries want out.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

You know that what they are doing is unreasonable.
Acting as a conduit for the Chinese Communist Party with the collusion of the Mainstream Media and Joe Biden?
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Arjen »

That too. But also not trading with the UK.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Now that we've just reached the stage in the Bexit process where armed British ships are going to patrol the coastal water threatening fishing boats, presumably with various reprisals, shops are stocking up ready for the shortages after we leave without a deal in a couple of weeks, the car industry, with its just-in-time delivery systems across previously frictionless borders, is going to be damaged, leaders of various industries are despairing at the chaos and uncertainty on top of existing Covid problems, preparations are having to be made for the armed forces to fly in Covid vaccines to avoid the gridlock at ports, Kent is going to become one huge lorry park, etc, I'm curious to know if there is anybody who still thinks Brexit was a good idea?

Perhaps you're more certain than ever that we were right to declare this economic war on our neighbours? Do you buy into the narrative, peddled by Boris Johnson ever since he was a journalist in Brussels spinning yarns about straight bananas and sausage bans, that anything bad that happens will always automatically be the fault of our EU neighbours? Never the fault of the architects of Brexit who persuaded a slim majority to vote for it on the promise of self-determination, money flowing into the NHS and Rule Britannia?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 7:41 am Now that we've just reached the stage in the Bexit process where armed British ships are going to patrol the coastal water threatening fishing boats, presumably with various reprisals, shops are stocking up ready for the shortages after we leave without a deal in a couple of weeks, the car industry, with its just-in-time delivery systems across previously frictionless borders, is going to be damaged, leaders of various industries are despairing at the chaos and uncertainty on top of existing Covid problems, preparations are having to be made for the armed forces to fly in Covid vaccines to avoid the gridlock at ports, Kent is going to become one huge lorry park, etc, I'm curious to know if there is anybody who still thinks Brexit was a good idea?

Perhaps you're more certain than ever that we were right to declare this economic war on our neighbours? Do you buy into the narrative, peddled by Boris Johnson ever since he was a journalist in Brussels spinning yarns about straight bananas and sausage bans, that anything bad that happens will always automatically be the fault of our EU neighbours? Never the fault of the architects of Brexit who persuaded a slim majority to vote for it on the promise of self-determination, money flowing into the NHS and Rule Britannia?
I hear Putin is pretty much overjoyed.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Update on Brexit for anyone who is interested:

Five years since the vote, the damage and extra bureaucracy caused by Brexit is still rumbling on. The damage it has caused to trade and movement of workers between the UK and the EU now means:

Vegetables are rotting, unpicked, because there are no seasonal workers available to pick them.

Petrol/gas stations had long queues/lines outside them yesterday and now all of those near me are closed. Not enough HGV drivers available to deliver the fuel. The government has been forced to create a temporary visa scheme to re-allow EU workers to work in the UK.

Supermarket shelves are getting emptier due to that same lack of people available to drive heavy goods vehicles.

Students on courses that require them to spend time in mainland European countries now have to apply for visas to do so. This can take months. Many are having their education ruined as a result.

Universities are in financial trouble because the supply of high-fee-paying foreign students has reduced.

Sending mail of any significant value to EU countries now requires paying duty and loads more paperwork.

The post-Brexit bilateral trade deals we were supposedly going to strike are still largely yet to materialize. No trade deal with the US yet. Why would there be? Leaving the EU massively reduces our bargaining power.

etc.

But most of it can be blamed on covid. Thank god for covid!
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Would Europe let us back in?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: September 25th, 2021, 1:21 pm Update on Brexit for anyone who is interested:

Five years since the vote, the damage and extra bureaucracy caused by Brexit is still rumbling on. The damage it has caused to trade and movement of workers between the UK and the EU now means:

Vegetables are rotting, unpicked, because there are no seasonal workers available to pick them.

Petrol/gas stations had long queues/lines outside them yesterday and now all of those near me are closed. Not enough HGV drivers available to deliver the fuel. The government has been forced to create a temporary visa scheme to re-allow EU workers to work in the UK.

Supermarket shelves are getting emptier due to that same lack of people available to drive heavy goods vehicles.

Students on courses that require them to spend time in mainland European countries now have to apply for visas to do so. This can take months. Many are having their education ruined as a result.

Universities are in financial trouble because the supply of high-fee-paying foreign students has reduced.

Sending mail of any significant value to EU countries now requires paying duty and loads more paperwork.

The post-Brexit bilateral trade deals we were supposedly going to strike are still largely yet to materialize. No trade deal with the US yet. Why would there be? Leaving the EU massively reduces our bargaining power.

etc.

But most of it can be blamed on covid. Thank god for covid!
Are these effects widely reported/understood/believed?
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:Are these effects widely reported/understood/believed?
Some are widely reported. For example, the fact that I can't get into work right now because I can't put fuel in my car means that it's difficult for that not to be widely reported. But, as with all of these kinds of issues these days, what we believe or understand about it tends to depend on our political views. On that one, it isn't just Brexit that has caused the problem with truck driver shortages. It's just a major contributing factor. So, depending on political taste, different factors can be emphasized.

My knowledge of some of these issues is more anecdotal. For example, the one about students' education being damaged because they now need visas to visit other European countries for their studies results from my wife working for student support at a UK university. She sees first-hand students who were supposed to be spending time in Spain, for example, facing the wall of bureaucracy that Brexit has erected - the months waiting for a visa to get to countries that we could visit easily previously. The extra bureaucracy and costs involved in sending mail of more than a certain (quite low) value to EU countries is also something I've discussed with people who have experienced it directly. The small company for which I work is having to take on staff to deal with the extra bureaucracy that the trade barriers and removal from European standards organizations has caused.

But if people voted for Brexit, they generally won't accept that these things are a problem or they'll blame them on something else. As I said, covid is a good one. The current Conservative government was purged of non-Brexit-supporting Tories in 2019, meaning that it is effectively a Brexit Party government rather than a Tory government. So they have a strong interest in keeping up the narrative that they created during the referendum - that it's all wonderful and anyone who says it isn't is a "remoaner".

OK. Rant over again for now.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021