Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Mark1955 wrote:The problem of 'the EU or not' is unique in that all parties that matter are divided on the issue.
Well, it has seemed recently as though the parties that are now deemed to matter, and which are therefore rewarded with popularity, are defined as those that are not divided on this issue. Hence the rise in strength of the LibDems and Brexit Party and relative fall in strength of the Tories and Labour. But perhaps that effect is already fading.
Personally if leave means we also loose the whinging Scots then it’s a win/win in my book. Sadly we won’t be able to get rid of the bigoted thickies in NI so easily but it might make us less inclined to tolerate them; if they want to be in the union they accept the rules of the union, no special case laws for NI.
I'm not sure which sections of the population of Northern Ireland you regard as "bigoted thickies". Republicans, Unionists, all of them or just subsets of them?

It sounds as though you would like England and Wales to go it alone? But do you regard the Welsh as whinging? What about Cornwall? How about Yorkshire? I know people in the south of England who seem to think they'd do better to divide the country (once Wales has been dispatched) on North/South lines and for the relatively prosperous South East of England, with the London financial hub, to go it alone and rid themselves of what they see as whinging northerners. How far would you go?
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

Steve3007 wrote: July 16th, 2019, 3:55 amIt sounds as though you would like England and Wales to go it alone? But do you regard the Welsh as whinging? What about Cornwall? How about Yorkshire? I know people in the south of England who seem to think they'd do better to divide the country (once Wales has been dispatched) on North/South lines and for the relatively prosperous South East of England, with the London financial hub, to go it alone and rid themselves of what they see as whinging northerners. How far would you go?
I'd divide England into 4, Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex and Londinium maxima. There'd be a defence agreement to form a single armed forces, but economically separate.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

But Northumbria would not naturally stop at Coldstream, would it?
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Perhaps the ancient "Danelaw" would make a suitable dividing line.
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Mark1955
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: July 22nd, 2019, 11:35 am But Northumbria would not naturally stop at Coldstream, would it?
That would depend on the votes of those living in the border area. Unlike the ilLiberal unDemocratic party of the UK I'd respect the result of a referendum whichever way it went.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Felix
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Felix »

I see that you Brits now have a prime minister who is admired by that great judge of human character, Donald Trump, just as he admires other paragons of human virtue like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

My condolences, I pray his conduct won't be as divisive as Trump's has been here in the States.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Sculptor1
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Felix wrote: July 25th, 2019, 12:35 pm I see that you Brits now have a prime minister who is admired by that great judge of human character, Donald Trump, just as he admires other paragons of human virtue like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

My condolences, I pray his conduct won't be as divisive as Trump's has been here in the States.
He has a Parliamentary majority of 2 MPs, and that includes the Ulster Unionists, who have deep reservations about the risk to trade if there is a no deal Brexit.
Parliament will soon be in recession, and the bumbling mound we call BoJo will be pressing flesh with the EU that has just elected a very right wing bunch of cronies to key positions of authority - not particularly accountable to anyone, and unlikely to offer the UK anything better in the way of a deal.
With his own party split on Brexit it is not likely that he will do well.

He'll have to call a GE, and the result of that is anyone's guess.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Felix wrote:I see that you Brits now have a prime minister who is admired by that great judge of human character, Donald Trump, just as he admires other paragons of human virtue like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.
Trump on Boris:
"He’s tough and he’s smart. They’re saying, ‘Britain Trump’. They call him ‘Britain Trump’ and people are saying that’s a good thing. They like me over there. That’s what they wanted. That’s what they need. He’ll get it done. Boris is good. He’s gonna do a good job."

He's right/wrong/doesn't matter which. We call him Britain Trump. Trump is hugely popular here. He's regarded as the greatest US President in history and that's why Boris is hugely popular and that's why we wanted him as Prime Minister and that's why we all voted for him in a big election in which he won 98% of the vote. Or not. Don't know. Doesn't matter. What's next?

Say what you like about politics these days but I guess it is at least entertaining. We have an entertaining three months to look forward to here in Britain. That's what Boris and Donald have grasped: it doesn't matter what you say or do, and whether it's true or false, and what effect it has, so long as it's entertaining. Tomorrow we'll be onto the next thing.

I suspect that was Boris's message when he recently waved a kipper in the air and told some lies about it. The lies were similar to those he told when he was the Telegraph's Brussels correspondent in the 1990's. I think the message was "I will continue to lie, as I have for most of my career, and you don't care because it doesn't matter". Very similar to the Trump technique. Maybe they're right? Maybe it doesn't matter?
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Felix wrote:... just as he admires other paragons of human virtue like Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.
Obviously, at least in the case of Kim Jong-un, he would claim that he says these things with a purpose in mind, and the question of whether he actually, really admires Kim Jong-un is irrelevant. All the matters is whether it gets results. As we know, it got the best results possible instantly, the moment Trump spoke to Kim for the first time. North Korea is now no longer any kind of threat. Mission accomplished. As Trump said after that meeting:

"Just landed—a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea. Meeting with Kim Jong Un was an interesting and very positive experience. North Korea has great potential for the future! Before taking office people were assuming that we were going to War with North Korea. President Obama said that North Korea was our biggest and most dangerous problem. No longer—sleep well tonight!"

(Disclaimer: the above is written in a post-truth context).

Similarly, British government politicians have stressed that it doesn't matter what they actually think of Trump. In the context of politics, saying what you think of a powerful leader of another country is done with a purpose, and that purpose is most certainly not to convey to the world what you think of them.
Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

Over 70 % of British people think climate change is more important than Brexit.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi wrote:Over 70 % of British people think climate change is more important than Brexit.
I guess since most British people consistently say that they don't want Brexit...

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i ... ve-the-eu/

...that's not surprising.

The interesting thing to me is that a large section of members of the Conservative Party do seem to want Brexit so very much that they regard achieving it as more important than almost anything else. The groundwork for this fanaticism among a section of the population was partly laid by Boris Johnson himself, many years ago, with all the gleeful lies that gradually helped to solidify the mythology of "Brussels Bureaucrats" dictating policy about such things as bananas and British sausages and the like. He's spoken openly before about the pleasure he took in telling those lies because of the commotion they caused back across the Channel. Some of that pleasure seems to have returned with the kipper incident.

In all the rhetoric harking back to Nazi Germany, and talking of slavery, and the "Remainers under the beds" style paranoia, from the likes of Mark Francois, Anne Widdecombe and Jacob Rees-Mogg respectively, I think we're seeing the culmination of that project. So, even though it won't do any good, it's at least slightly heartening that despite all the nonsense talked about enacting the Will Of The People to throw off the shackles of their EU slaveholders and restore Britain in its rightful place as the most important nation in the world, most people aren't fooled by it. A lot are. But most aren't.
Belindi
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Belindi »

even though it won't do any good, it's at least slightly heartening that despite all the nonsense talked about enacting the Will Of The People to throw off the shackles of their EU slaveholders and restore Britain in its rightful place as the most important nation in the world, most people aren't fooled by it. A lot are. But most aren't.
God! I hope so!
Steve3007
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Steve3007 »

H G Wells wrote:The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one he said. But still they come.
Barely more than a week ago, according to our leader, the chance of a no-deal Brexit was a million to one against. Now, apparently, all that is history and it's a racing certainty and £100 million is going to be spent on an information campaign warning the public about how best to weather the economic disaster that Johnson is absolutely adamant must start to unfold on 31st October, because it was the Will Of The People (or at least 35% of them) in June 2016.

In my lifetime, it's hard to think of anything more insane in British politics then what has unfolded over the last 3 years.
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detail
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by detail »

Isn't it better to face the facts than to lament about already spilled milk , which somehow cannot be putten into reverse action by us. Even if its hard to accept , the facts are different , so we shouldn't complain all the time, this is somehow wasting your lifetime with bad mood. Just live your life, this is more important. We cannot change it anymore it at least seems for me to be in the final state.
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Felix
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Felix »

"Isn't it better to face the facts than to lament about already spilled milk?"

The collection and rebottling of spilled milk has always been a primary concern of politicians.

"In my lifetime, it's hard to think of anything more insane in British politics then what has unfolded over the last 3 years."

British, American, French, et. al., we've all boarded the Titanic, the bright side is that there is less change of hitting an iceberg now because they're all quickly melting into the sea.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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