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Should the UK leave the European Union?

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Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 6:07 am

The US France and Britain wanted to destabilize Syria for a number of reasons
You are going to have to do better than for 'reasons'. How do you know this? What are your sources? Are there no other factors? Do all Syrians agree with you? It's just horribly complex, there are too many moving parts, I can't see how this war can be boiled down so simply, how come you think it can?
it is something that was set in motion because Neo-cons have wanted to get into Syria
Much too vague. The real world doesn't work this. In the real world no one has complete magical control over a situation and they are just working as best they can for their interests (good or bad or almost certainly in between). Whether they are you, me or the PM. I don't for one second believe the likes of Blair to be evil geniuses, though I have little respect for your average politician.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Burning ghost » September 6th, 2018, 6:11 am

Eduk -

Pipeline and Russia having the ability to cut Europe off. That is ONE reason I’ve heard bandied around. Who knows though?
AKA badgerjelly

Eduk
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 6:34 am

But if you don't know then that means you don't know, not you do know. Could be the reasons are excellent. Could be the reasons are diabolical. Could be the reasons are complex, full of compromise, sub optimal, full of guesses and hopes, etc. I find it annoying that people proclaim it to be obviously 100% unjust when they have no actual idea. If that isn't bias then I don't know what is.
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Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » September 6th, 2018, 6:46 am

Eduk wrote:
September 6th, 2018, 6:07 am
You are going to have to do better than for 'reasons'. How do you know this? What are your sources? Are there no other factors? Do all Syrians agree with you? It's just horribly complex, there are too many moving parts, I can't see how this war can be boiled down so simply, how come you think it can?
Do all Syrians agree with the image painted in mainstream media? Is all Syrians agreeing the best criterion for validity?

Further I mentioned things not present in most presentations of how the war got going. This adds complexity. Of course there were people against Assad, many with just causes. But they would not have been able to get a serious civil war going without outside intervention. It is not clear to me they are better and ISIS is pretty clearly worse.

Did you go at mainstream versions of what is happening with as much interest in sources? Do you know how much corporations and for example the US government create news?
Much too vague. The real world doesn't work this. In the real world no one has complete magical control over a situation and they are just working as best they can for their interests (good or bad or almost certainly in between).
God, so many possible responses 1) obviously no one has complete control. 2) The Bush administration managed to get Gulf WAR two going very effectively on false evidence, false testimony and propaganda. And they managed to shift large amounts of tax money to corporations when they privitized the military and the rebuilding, corporations they had ties too. In fact I think it was Cheney who simply refused the Congressional due diligence that was mandatory regarding his connections to these companies. And some of that administration was working back under Reagan Bush DEFENDING Hussein after he gassed the Kurds. All of this can be found, but was never emphasized in the mainstream press until it was too late and no one served any time for creating that refugee crisis, war, casualities, etc. 3) What's magical about this? Extremely powerful people and groups cannot control everything, but they can do a lot.
Whether they are you, me or the PM. I don't for one second believe the likes of Blair to be evil geniuses, though I have little respect for your average politician.
Blair? Blair is not the kind of person who works out the details or strategies involved in such enterprises, he's a salesman. I am certainly not saying Bush 2 came up with anything himself either. Cheney might have come up with some stuff, but then, excuse me, powerful people have access to incredible experts. And I never mentioned Blair who is technically not a neocon though certainly went along with their plans in the Mideast and likely elsewhere, whether manipulated or conscious I have no idea nor do I care. Politicians are subject of propaganda and pressure like everyone else.

Notice how you jumped to an assumption that for this to be true Blair would have to be an evil genius.

That is a weird assumption, but it likely was part of your incredulity.

It is hard to notice what is easy to notice.

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Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » September 6th, 2018, 7:55 am

    Eduk wrote:
    September 6th, 2018, 6:34 am
    But if you don't know then that means you don't know, not you do know. Could be the reasons are excellent. Could be the reasons are diabolical. Could be the reasons are complex, full of compromise, sub optimal, full of guesses and hopes, etc. I find it annoying that people proclaim it to be obviously 100% unjust when they have no actual idea. If that isn't bias then I don't know what is.
    Then you must find mainstream media extremely annoying, well, all media.

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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 8:08 am

    Did you go at mainstream versions of what is happening with as much interest in sources? Do you know how much corporations and for example the US government create news?
    I already said I know of no reputable news sources. That includes mainstream media. Although perhaps I should elaborate, I know of no reputable sources regarding politics.
    All of this can be found, but was never emphasized in the mainstream press until it was too late and no one served any time for creating that refugee crisis, war, casualities, etc.
    Maybe that is because it can't be proved. I believe Bush 2's influence to be much less than you believe. Even someone like Hitler is just one person, there is only so much he can do, fundamentally he can only take away the rights that people are willing to forfeit. I see him as someone taking full advantage of a situation and holding onto the tiger's tail more than I see him as single handedly engineering from scratch genocide. Not to excuse Hitler his actions of course, he's still a terrible human being. As is I suspect Bush 2.
    Notice how you jumped to an assumption that for this to be true Blair would have to be an evil genius
    It's not an assumption, I just don't believe individuals have the influence you believe they do. After all you 'know' the extremely dodgy goings on, so why doesn't everyone else? Why do people vote for governments who go to war for 'reasons'. Are they not complicit? Perhaps the american people wish there to be wars in Syria.
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    Steve3007
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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Steve3007 » September 6th, 2018, 8:18 am

    Belindi wrote:Steve, do you think that another referendum would result in remain with Europe ?
    No, I don't. It's too late.

    In the movie "Men in Black" they have a memory erasure stick that wipes people's memories and replaces them with other memories. If that were done to the whole of the EU, including the UK, for the whole of the past 18 months then maybe we could pretend it didn't happen. But it can't. So something that can be described, in at least some sense, as "leaving the EU" has to happen.

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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 8:18 am

    Then you must find mainstream media extremely annoying, well, all media.
    Yes.
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    Mark1955
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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Mark1955 » September 6th, 2018, 9:38 am

    ThomasHobbes wrote:
    August 23rd, 2018, 5:45 am
    Mark1955 wrote:
    August 22nd, 2018, 3:50 pm

    Well I didn't vote to leave for any of these reasons, but lets not let that get in the way of a Guardian polemic.
    So for what reasons did you vote Brexit?
    Was it square bananas?
    Or did you vote to leave the EU because of immigration from the rest of the world?
    Two main reasons, firstly big isn't better, big is inflexible, frequently dogmatic and dictatorial. One size never fits all it frequently doesn't really fit anyone. I believe the desire to be big stems largely from a desire to 'compete' with the US and is about politicians urge for power rather than any economic benefit to EU citizens. Secondly the EU isn't a democracy, it a bureaucracy with a democratic fig leaf. This bureaucracy is frequently corrupt [see today's report on the appointment of one of Junker's pals to a key job with no proper selection procedure] and generally populated by failed politicians.
    I couldn't give a fig for bananas square or otherwise, but it's a useful topic to point out that as all bananas are clones of each other [one size fits all] one decent virus or bug and we will live in a banana free world.
    While it is true the UK has a population problem, England has the highest population density of any major nation, our only competitors are places like Singapore; and population density correlates very well to social disorder and crime, not to mention failing public services; there are too many lazy people in the UK so we have no choice but to import labour from abroad to do our antisocial work for us, which is why those who did vote Brexit to keep the foreigners out will discover they have been, lets say, constructively mislead.
    If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 9:46 am

    I believe the desire to be big stems largely from a desire to 'compete' with the US
    What do you think of Obama's comment about the UK joining the back of the line? As in do you agree Brexit will damage the UK economy, but you don't care, as in you have other priorities (not necessarily uncaring from a negative perspective). Or you don't agree and think being 'big' doesn't make a difference to economies?
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    Mark1955
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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Mark1955 » September 6th, 2018, 11:41 am

    Eduk wrote:
    September 6th, 2018, 9:46 am
    I believe the desire to be big stems largely from a desire to 'compete' with the US
    What do you think of Obama's comment about the UK joining the back of the line? As in do you agree Brexit will damage the UK economy, but you don't care, as in you have other priorities (not necessarily uncaring from a negative perspective). Or you don't agree and think being 'big' doesn't make a difference to economies?
    I'm not interested in presidential soundbites from years ago. I accept there will be short term disadvantages to Brexit of various kinds [some of them caused deliberately for profit by people like currency speculators], but I believe that a) the economy will be better off in the long run, b) the principle of democracy, for which we've fought wars in the past, is worth accepting some financial disadvantages. It is precisely in economics that I think being big is a disadvantage as it makes you inflexible. If we, as opposed to the whole of Europe, think a particular country is taking the mickey and a trade war is justified we can do it, alternately and much more likely we can engage in free trade when the EU has a tendency to be protectionist. The US currently has a loon in the White House because it's government cannot cope with a robust economy that is limited to certain states. Trump was elected by the 'fly over' states because they feel the Eastern elite and the West coast are ignoring the fact they're in the poop. If each state was an autonomous economic unit with its own currency and interest rates some of these problems would be ameliorated.
    If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Mark1955 » September 6th, 2018, 11:46 am

    Eduk wrote:
    September 6th, 2018, 8:08 am
    Even someone like Hitler is just one person, there is only so much he can do, fundamentally he can only take away the rights that people are willing to forfeit. I see him as someone taking full advantage of a situation and holding onto the tiger's tail more than I see him as single handedly engineering from scratch genocide. Not to excuse Hitler his actions of course, he's still a terrible human being.
    My bold, Mein Kampf, written long before he was anywhere near power, makes his intentions regarding the Jews quite clear. He clearly didn't do it single handedly, but it wasn't an idea he got caught up with by accident.
    If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 12:00 pm

    It is precisely in economics that I think being big is a disadvantage as it makes you inflexible
    That is interesting. I always thought that the strong bullied the weak. Also is a country analogous to a business? For example if you are a smaller business then you can pivot much faster into evolving circumstances (say new tech) and steal a march on a competitor and potentially put them out of business. Although I would say there are many more examples of large businesses putting small businesses out of business than the other way around? But do countries work in the same way? Can the UK pivot and take advantage of some new technology or methodology thanks to being out of the EU? Personally it seems high risk to deliberately make yourself smaller?
    Where do you base this opinion from by the way Mark? I would be interested to read some sources.
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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Eduk » September 6th, 2018, 12:02 pm

    makes his intentions regarding the Jews quite clear. He clearly didn't do it single handedly, but it wasn't an idea he got caught up with by accident.
    Yes good point. I didn't mean to imply that he had no intention, when he started the job, to commit genocide and then suddenly found himself doing it. Hitler is both a product of and facilitator to antisemitism.
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    Re: Should the UK leave the European Union?

    Post by Belindi » September 6th, 2018, 12:43 pm

    Eduk, some newspapers aim to sell because they please people who tend to have unthinking reactions to , for instance, immigration into Britain from eastern Europe, or from Muslim communities.Other newspapers which cater for deeper thinkers sell fewer copies.

    There is a lot of popular feeling in areas of deprivation against immigrants. It's common for people who are afraid for them to distrust foreigners.
    It's possible that the mess that our governent is making of Brexit has caused former Brexiters to change theur minds and see that there is strength in numbers. The unpopularity of President Trump in the UK also may be swaying popular opinion away from trading with the US.

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