Does Trump Want To Be President?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

Except, this was not the case. The President was elected 'by the people' based on the numbers in his favor in each state. Not by 'other politicians'.
As I thought I'd pointed out in the second paragraph.

-- Updated Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:13 am to add the following --
What do you think would happen if there were not state electorates but only a popular vote across the entire country, given the fact that California and New York are the most densely populated of states?
Clearly there would be a danger of a form of "tyranny of the majority" - a problem to which any form of direct democracy would be prone.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Grunth »

Steve3007 wrote:
Except, this was not the case. The President was elected 'by the people' based on the numbers in his favor in each state. Not by 'other politicians'.
As I thought I'd pointed out in the second paragraph.

-- Updated Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:13 am to add the following --
What do you think would happen if there were not state electorates but only a popular vote across the entire country, given the fact that California and New York are the most densely populated of states?
Clearly there would be a danger of a form of "tyranny of the majority" - a problem to which any form of direct democracy would be prone.
So would you agree, then, that a United States exists because of an electoral state system and would begin to not exist if changed to a popular vote system across the entire country?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

This problem of the more populous states swamping the less populous ones is a problem with direct democracy generally. As I understand it, the electoral college system specifically does not address that. That is addressed by the more general principle of representatives. The electoral college seems to address the more specific problem of private, intra-party deal-making being the motivation for choosing a leader.

-- Updated Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:27 am to add the following --
So would you agree, then, that a United States exists because of an electoral state system and would begin to not exist if changed to a popular vote system across the entire country?
As I said, my limited research suggests that you're confusing the specific case of the electoral college system with the general principle of representative democracy, of which the electoral college system is an example. But I invite others with more knowledge to enlighten us both.

I agree that a direct, popular voting system across an entire country is not the best form of democracy.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Grunth »

Steve3007 wrote:This problem of the more populous states swamping the less populous ones is a problem with direct democracy generally. As I understand it, the electoral college system specifically does not address that. That is addressed by the more general principle of representatives. The electoral college seems to address the more specific problem of private, intra-party deal-making being the motivation for choosing a leader.
I think the architects of the electoral system, who wanted to be a United States, understood the political mind of man. I think they knew that state representatives, in order to maintain their power position, would direct most of the country's resources and tax funds toward their well populated state rather than share it across the nation in order to only appease their voting base.

Industry and jobs are the lifeblood of a nation's economy, and, depending on where certain natural resources are located, the economy of one state requires that the industry of another state, which provides the resulting product of a natural resource, be supported by having it's workforce, in that industry state, treated as equal rather than as slaves for a more denesly populated geographical area of the country.

This 'popular vote' thing is a non sequitur. A Sean Spicer should not allow himself to be provoked into an argument around it (implied by the supposed inauguration attendees). A Sean Spicer should check his ego reaction/sensations. It is only a trap being set by those attempting to undermine a legitimate process, within which they lost and with which the democrats, and global elite backers, will try to win back by propaganda.

The 'popular vote' is propaganda. The propagandists want chaos in the streets. If there are riots, based on such ignorance of legitimate systems, then there could be martial laws imposed here and there. Such an outcome, of course, will make a Trump presidency look like what the propaganda was saying all along about Trump. That he is some sort of leader of storm troopers.

But too bad. It may just have to go that way for a while. If one burns or breaks stuff, particularly if it is not one's own, then that is just how it goes.

It is either a United States of America, as produced by an electoral state voting system of democracy, or America is 51 separate countries being probably more at war with each other....and if not at war, merely not so due to each smaller nation relying on slavery once more (whereby slaves work by the barrel of a gun they cannot hold the stock and trigger of, except by revolt).

There is no popular vote, period. 'Popular vote' is a propaganda statement.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

Grunth:
I think the architects of the electoral system, who wanted to be a United States, understood the political mind of man. I think they knew that state representatives, in order to maintain their power position, would direct most of the country's resources and tax funds toward their well populated state rather than share it across the nation in order to only appease their voting base.

Industry and jobs are the lifeblood of a nation's economy, and, depending on where certain natural resources are located, the economy of one state requires that the industry of another state, which provides the resulting product of a natural resource, be supported by having it's workforce, in that industry state, treated as equal rather than as slaves for a more denesly populated geographical area of the country.
Pretty fair comments, I think.
This 'popular vote' thing is a non sequitur. A Sean Spicer should not allow himself to be provoked into an argument around it (implied by the supposed inauguration attendees). A Sean Spicer should check his ego reaction/sensations. It is only a trap being set by those attempting to undermine a legitimate process, within which they lost and with which the democrats, and global elite backers, will try to win back by propaganda.

The 'popular vote' is propaganda. The propagandists want chaos in the streets. If there are riots, based on such ignorance of legitimate systems, then there could be martial laws imposed here and there. Such an outcome, of course, will make a Trump presidency look like what the propaganda was saying all along about Trump. That he is some sort of leader of storm troopers...
Absurd comments.

The assertion that anybody who talks about the "popular vote" is a propagandist who is in cahoots with "global elites" to foment violent revolution in the USA is, in my view, clearly absurd. The popular vote is a very simple concept that is talked about in the UK and elsewhere too. In the UK minor parties like the Lib Dems and UKIP often complain that their political power is not directly proportional to their share of the popular vote. That doesn't mean they're violent revolutionaries.

The popular vote is simply the total number of people in the country who voted for each candidate. I don't know of anybody who is unaware of the fact that this measure of popularity is not directly relevant to the question of who actually gains power. Even president Trump knows this. So we can only speculate as to why he is so vocal on the subject and doesn't simply ignore it as a non-issue. Some speculate that it is because he cannot stand the idea that he might be perceived to have lost at anything, even things that don't make any difference.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Every time the candidate who won the popular vote did not win the election there has been a debate about eliminating the electoral college. The current argument against it is two-fold. First, one of the reasons for instituting it in the first place - the nation was to be a republic rather than a democracy, was rendered obsolete by the mechanism by which electoral votes are counted. That is, the electoral votes in each state go to whoever won the popular vote in that state, although members of the electoral college can refuse to vote for the candidate if they think the candidate unfit. The second reason for the electoral college was to protect state rights. As the argument is framed today it is a matter of state’s rights versus individual rights.

Older arguments for state’s rights have come under question given that the individual’s interests today are more nation or even global and less local or state. The population is much more mobile. Businesses are national and international. Environmental impact is global. Terrorists threats are national and global. Etc.

There has always been a tension between nation and state. Right now we are seeing a pushback by some states against Trump’s policies and him threatening to withhold federal funds. On the other hand, the federal government is attempting to dump a lot of its problems, such as healthcare, back on the states.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

Fooloso4:
...the electoral votes in each state go to whoever won the popular vote in that state, although members of the electoral college can refuse to vote for the candidate if they think the candidate unfit.
As I understand it, a member of the electoral college who refuses to vote for the candidate who won most of the votes in that state is called a "faithless elector". And apparently that has been known to happen, but is exceptional.

I also understand that these electors are usually loyal party members. So I guess they are politicians. As far as I can see, the key difference between this system and the system in which party leaders are chosen by congressmen/MPs is that the electoral college was originally put in place as a way to stop party leaders being elected for factional, intra-party reasons - backroom deals - and to ensure that the leader is simply the choice of the people.

If I've got this right, then actually these electors don't really seem to serve much purpose except as simple communicators of the will of the people of their state. They're just messengers. Is that right, or am I missing something?

-- Updated Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:24 pm to add the following --
Every time the candidate who won the popular vote did not win the election there has been a debate about eliminating the electoral college.
According to my brief research this has only happened twice in the last 100 years or so and in both cases the winner of the popular vote and loser of the electoral college vote was a Democrat (Al Gore and Hilary Clinton). So I suppose people who feel like it can still speculate that the debate about eliminating the electoral college was motivated by a desire on the part of the Democratic party, and their sinister global elite overlords, to subvert democracy, and by them being sore losers?
Dolphin42
Posts: 886
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Trump has now said that if Mexico refuses to pay for the wall, the Mexican leader should cancel a planned visit to Washington. We're only a few days into the new regime and already it looks like a war between the US and Mexico is a brewin'. Thrilling, popcorn-chomping stuff.

Also: since most undocumented immigrants are people who flew in and outstayed their visas, surely the wall is going to have to be 60,000 feet tall?
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Steve3007:
As I understand it, a member of the electoral college who refuses to vote for the candidate who won most of the votes in that state is called a "faithless elector". And apparently that has been known to happen, but is exceptional.
Right. There were a record number of faithless electors in this election - seven. Only two voted against Trump. According to interviews, of the five Democrats, their votes were not only in opposition to Clinton but to the current electoral system.

cbsnews.com/news/which-candidates-did-t ... tion-2016/

http://www.hamiltonelectors.com/
I also understand that these electors are usually loyal party members. So I guess they are politicians.
Some are some are not. They are party faithful and typically active in politics, but not necessarily politicians in the sense of holding or running for office.
As far as I can see, the key difference between this system and the system in which party leaders are chosen by congressmen/MPs is that the electoral college was originally put in place as a way to stop party leaders being elected for factional, intra-party reasons - backroom deals - and to ensure that the leader is simply the choice of the people.
What needs to be understood is the system has undergone several changes. The general intent of the system is to maintain a balance of power, but Alexander Hamilton had deep concerns regarding the wisdom of the masses to do what was in their own best interest. The electoral college as he conceived of it would be a deliberative body. The anti-federalists questioned whether the interests of the people would be represented by such a body. The history of the electoral college has been a series of attempts to fix problems in the system as they emerge. It is a patchwork.
If I've got this right, then actually these electors don't really seem to serve much purpose except as simple communicators of the will of the people of their state. They're just messengers. Is that right, or am I missing something?
That is correct in part. But, given the historic number of electors who did not vote for the party candidate it may be that electors will once again be more than just messengers.

According to my brief research this has only happened twice in the last 100 years or so and in both cases the winner of the popular vote and loser of the electoral college vote was a Democrat (Al Gore and Hilary Clinton).
In 1824 Andrew Jackson won the popular vote but got less than 50 percent of the electoral votes. John Quincy Adams became the next president when he was picked by the House of Representatives.
In 1876 Samuel Tilden won the popular vote but lost the election when Rutherford B. Hayes got 185 electoral votes to Tilden’s 184.
In 1888 Grover Cleveland won the popular vote but lost the election when Benjamin Harrison got 233 electoral votes to Cleveland’s 168.
In 2000 Al Gore won the popular vote but lost the election to George Bush. In the most highly contested election in modern history, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the Florida recount of ballots, giving Bush the state’s 25 electoral votes for a total of 271 to Gore’s 255.
history.com/topics/us-presidents/presid ... tion-facts
So I suppose people who feel like it can still speculate that the debate about eliminating the electoral college was motivated by a desire on the part of the Democratic party, and their sinister global elite overlords, to subvert democracy, and by them being sore losers?
Yup, but those who make such arguments would quickly change their tune if the shoe were on the other foot. More importantly, not all politics is party politics. There are some who are debating the issue in other terms.

Dolphin42:
Trump has now said that if Mexico refuses to pay for the wall, the Mexican leader should cancel a planned visit to Washington.
Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto cancelled.
… surely the wall is going to have to be 60,000 feet tall?
He did say it would be bigly.

Trump’s interview yesterday with ABC News was a bizarre, falsehood filled, self-promoting, self-aggrandizing, bit of political theater that was both funny and deeply troubling. Opinions are split as to whether he is profoundly inept or has brought a new skill to politics. Some see it as an an inability to see beyond his obsession with his own popularity, but others see all this as just noise deliberately intended to distract us from what he is doing.

The Washington Post had this to say about Trump’s ABC News interview:
washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/w ... 3c5345a214

In an editorial in the Washington Post entitled “Don’t get distracted by Trump’s ‘dead cats’” his diversionary tactics are discussed:
washingtonpost.com/opinions/2017/01/25/ ... adca1f0386

Of particular concern:
The Environmental Protection Agency, the Agriculture Department, the Interior Department and the Department of Health and Human Services all reported various new edicts restricting federal agencies’ use of social media, appearances in public events or contacts with the press or lawmakers. It was an authoritarian gesture that, in an ordinary time, would dominate the news.

His administration froze all EPA grants and contracts, and it ordered the EPA to take down its climate-change Web page, thereby removing links to data on global warming.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

There's only so long that it's possible to see this all as a big joke and keep laughing. It's chilling to see and hear the person to whom the USA has handed itself on a plate. When I read the transcripts of the barely coherent child-like rants that come out of his mouth, at least as much now that he is president as before, I try to keep a sense of humour. But it gets harder and harder.

The only source of comfort is the 22nd amendment. On the subject of environmental protection I try to see it as a pause. The world will just have to wait for 4 years before making any more progress. But I worry about how much irreversible devastation he he could wreak int that time. In many ways, it's an awfully long time.

Anyway, I suppose we have to remember the old serenity/sanity prayer: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference. I can't do anything about this disaster. I can just hope that the USA and world weathers the storm.

Good luck.
Grunth
Posts: 793
Joined: February 3rd, 2016, 9:48 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Grunth »

Steve3007 wrote:
This 'popular vote' thing is a non sequitur. A Sean Spicer should not allow himself to be provoked into an argument around it (implied by the supposed inauguration attendees). A Sean Spicer should check his ego reaction/sensations. It is only a trap being set by those attempting to undermine a legitimate process, within which they lost and with which the democrats, and global elite backers, will try to win back by propaganda.

The 'popular vote' is propaganda. The propagandists want chaos in the streets. If there are riots, based on such ignorance of legitimate systems, then there could be martial laws imposed here and there. Such an outcome, of course, will make a Trump presidency look like what the propaganda was saying all along about Trump. That he is some sort of leader of storm troopers...
Absurd comments.

The assertion that anybody who talks about the "popular vote" is a propagandist who is in cahoots with "global elites" to foment violent revolution in the USA is, in my view, clearly absurd.
What is absurd is your claim that I said that anybody who talks about the 'popular vote' is a propagandist.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Belindi »

Steve3007 wrote:There's only so long that it's possible to see this all as a big joke and keep laughing. It's chilling to see and hear the person to whom the USA has handed itself on a plate. When I read the transcripts of the barely coherent child-like rants that come out of his mouth, at least as much now that he is president as before, I try to keep a sense of humour. But it gets harder and harder.

The only source of comfort is the 22nd amendment. On the subject of environmental protection I try to see it as a pause. The world will just have to wait for 4 years before making any more progress. But I worry about how much irreversible devastation he he could wreak int that time. In many ways, it's an awfully long time.

Anyway, I suppose we have to remember the old serenity/sanity prayer: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference. I can't do anything about this disaster. I can just hope that the USA and world weathers the storm.

Good luck.
Do you think that Donald Trump can possibly be influenced by a clever and charismatic person?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Steve3007 »

Belindi:
Do you think that Donald Trump can possibly be influenced by a clever and charismatic person?
I'm sure it's possible. I don't know how probable it is, or to what extent he would be influenced or what the effect would be. Based on publicly available evidence of what has influenced him in the past he does seem to be one of those people who is particularly vulnerable to the confirmation bias that our information-rich age allows us to indulge so effectively, resulting in him having some pretty crazy beliefs. That's if we stick to the idea that his words are intended to convey information about what he believes to be factually true. Not necessarily the case.

It seems likely that for the first time in his life he is now having to actually think more than superficially about political issues, and properly consider evidence that is presented to him. It will be interesting to see what effect that has.

He's famously vulnerable to flattery. As we know, he thinks that Putin called him a genius, due to a Russian word used of him by Putin that roughly translates to "colourful" but which was actually translated by some as "brilliant" - two words in English that are related when applied to physical things like light but which, when applied to a person, mean very different things! But I don't know how important this vulnerability it. More of a harmless funny story. Probably not as important as his vulnerability to disinformation that fits the things he already wants to believe.
Dolphin42
Posts: 886
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 8:05 am
Location: The Evening Star

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Dolphin42 »

The latest development on payment for the wall seems to be that Trump proposes to make American consumers pay for it with a 20% tax on imports from Mexico. Obviously that would have a depressive effect on the economy but I guess if he doesn't care about that and is motivated solely by a desire to be able to claim not to have backed down, or "lost", it might work? It would be just about possible to claim that this tax meant that Mexico was paying for it, ignore any analysis showing why this isn't the case, declare victory and move on.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does Trump Want To Be President?

Post by Belindi »

Steve wrote:

I
t seems likely that for the first time in his life he is now having to actually think more than superficially about political issues, and properly consider evidence that is presented to him. It will be interesting to see what effect that has.
There are ways to present evidence to intransigent people which work better than bald facts. Do you think that one of those ways is to confirm by implication that the intransigent person is one the same side as the (charismatic) persuader?

The persuader doesn't even have to be especially personally charming and their charisma might be that they align themselves and their target with powerful and revered people dead and alive
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021