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Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

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Fooloso4
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Fooloso4 » April 1st, 2018, 4:30 pm

Steve3007
One of the skills that died with older generations was the ability to have a fag in the corner of the mouth at all times.
The good ol’ days. This is what we need to make America great again! With the EPA rollbacks I would not be surprised to see a push on the FDA if Trump has personal ties to Big Tobacco.

BTW having a fag in your mouth has a very different meaning on this side of the Atlantic.

Empiricist-Bruno:

To me, voting for the head of a political machine does not give you any power over the political machine as it is the machine that seeks it's new head. When the voter can't stop the political machine, there is no real responsibility for it or what it does.

I am somewhat sympathetic to this position but history shows us that change is possible and those who run the machine from the front room must have more than backroom dark money behind them if they are to stay in office. 2018 and 2020 should tell us whether the machine has enough grease to chug along smoothly, encounter friction, or grind to a halt. I will vote.

I would like to look at the question of responsibility from a different perspective. The economy in the U.S. is robust. Trump, predictably, is taking responsibility but the truth is he is not responsible. Despite his claim that he inherited a mess, the truth is just the opposite. The economy had hit its stride and has continued in that direction. Who is responsible for what is not always clear and consequences may not become apparent for many years. Cutting taxes is always popular but seeing the real cost of tax cuts is not so apparent.

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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Karpel Tunnel » April 6th, 2018, 7:47 am

Nick_A wrote:
November 18th, 2016, 10:20 am
Their taxes should reflect their responsibility. For example all persons should be required to admit on their tax forms if they support illegal aliens in the United States. If they do, they should pay a sir charge of $1,000 to support them. Those who oppose the invasion by illegal aliens would of course not have this obligation. It is the fair thing to do. Not just your vote but your taxes as well should reflect your beliefs
Oh, thank god, then I don't have to pay for the war on drugs, the war on terror, the two Gulf Wars, and since I voted independent for someone heavily against the Glass Steagall act, I am not responsible for the financial crisis of 2008. I can retire today. Whew.

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Robert66
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Robert66 » April 13th, 2018, 5:04 pm

'Robert: Great picture of George Orwell holding a gun with a fag in his mouth. One of the skills that died with older generations was the ability to have a fag in the corner of the mouth at all times.'

Quite right, Steve. What a shame Orwell died - he would be very useful on these forums!

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Robert66
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Robert66 » April 13th, 2018, 5:18 pm

Nick_A wrote: 'Not just your vote but your taxes as well should reflect your beliefs'.

An intriguing idea. I can imagine a system in which the voter could also nominate their preferences for the expenditure of tax revenues. Of course the non-voter and the non-taxpayer would have no such option.

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: 'When the voter can't stop the political machine, there is no real responsibility for it or what it does.' Here we arrive at the perplexing heart of the problem. Politicians in supposed democracy are meant to represent us, but they don't. The only way we could regain our democratic rights from the machine would be to vote for the few who seek the necessary change and have their "heart in the right place" (our real representatives), but we won't.

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calm-realm
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by calm-realm » April 18th, 2018, 3:47 am

I think burning ghost and Empiricist-Bruno solved the problem arguing that a person can only be held responsible for things he/she has influence on:
Burning ghost wrote:
November 20th, 2016, 4:02 am
No, they should not be held responsible. If the government does something you think is bad and people support that bad act then those people should be held responsible indirectly if they are aware of what is happening.

To hold someone accountable for someone elses actions is pretty damn silly.
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:
April 1st, 2018, 2:37 pm
To me, voting for the head of a political machine does not give you any power over the political machine as it is the machine that seeks it's new head. When the voter can't stop the political machine, there is no real responsibility for it or what it does.
So, in this situation, the voter is not responsible for the consequences. But then, who is?

This got me thinking of situations where one person is partially responsible for the actions of another. I thought of: 1) a grown up responsible for a minor 2) a boss responsible for the employee.
It seems to me that always the person in charge, like a president, is partially responsible for the actions of the people being ordered/oriented, and the latter being also partially responsible.

So if trump, let's say, build a wall, he would be partially responsible and the people literally building it (construction workers and company) would also be. The voters are not.

I admit this looks wrong, but I cannot se errors in the logic.

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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » April 28th, 2018, 8:47 pm

calm-realm

I think burning ghost and Empiricist-Bruno solved the problem arguing that a person can only be held responsible for things he/she has influence on
Me, a philosophical problem solver? You are making me blush.
So, in this situation, the voter is not responsible for the consequences. But then, who is?


I think the responsible is good old George Washington as he and his colleagues created the political machine that we are talking about, and which is still used today.

It seems to me that always the person in charge, like a president, is partially responsible for the actions of the people being ordered/oriented, and the latter being also partially responsible.
You might be interested in learning about my concept of female and male intentions, which is what I believe we are seeing at work in your examples. The male part is the part that starts the female intention. In today's world, we assign 100% of the responsibility for the action coming from the match of these intentions to the male part only. If you reach the moon, it's because you got yourself there through your ingenuity and the rocket you used has zero responsibility in sending you up there. But I do happen to believe that viewing things that way is wrong and that this explains the insane world we live in. I do believe in female responsibility for actions but I don't believe it makes up for 50% of the action produced. I would believe that both male and female intentions are 100% responsible for it. The choice is entirely arbitrary as to which side you decide to credit, in my opinion. But you can't credit both at the same time.

I admit this looks wrong, but I cannot se errors in the logic.
I think that if Trump were to build the wall, voters would be responsible for the shape of the TRUMP letters that are going to go on that wall as they have chosen the name of the political machine that made it.
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Spiral » April 28th, 2018, 9:28 pm

Spiral Out wrote:
November 8th, 2016, 7:01 am
We are constantly admonished of our responsibility as US citizens to vote and how important it is for us to do so. We are told how critically important our vote is. If it is a critical responsibility to vote, shouldn't we also be critically responsible for that vote?

So then the question is: If Donald Trump becomes president and plunges the nation into civil war, isolationism and economic hardship (which is what I believe will happen) then how much culpability do the people who voted for him have?

Should they in some way be held directly responsible for the fallout, especially given the obvious nature of his character?

Thank you for your thoughts.
This would require eliminating the secret ballot, would it not? How can someone be held accountable, in a direct way instead of merely in a collective way, for their vote if the vote is kept secret? If the economy tanks under Trump, a Trump voter can plausibly deny voting for Trump.

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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Empiricist-Bruno » April 29th, 2018, 5:14 pm

Robert66 wrote:
April 13th, 2018, 5:18 pm

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: 'When the voter can't stop the political machine, there is no real responsibility for it or what it does.' Here we arrive at the perplexing heart of the problem. Politicians in supposed democracy are meant to represent us, but they don't. The only way we could regain our democratic rights from the machine would be to vote for the few who seek the necessary change and have their "heart in the right place" (our real representatives), but we won't.

And an automated bank teller machine is also meant to represent a human bank teller but it too does not really do that. There is a price to pay for using machines especially when you think you understand what they are all about but you really don't.
When you suggest that we should vote for people who have their hearts at the right place but that we fail to do this, it suggests that we don't have our hearts at the right place. LOL. I think this may confirm my impression that I'm surrounded by machines and with people who have their hearts with them.
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Re: Responsibility to Vote vs. Responsibility for the Vote

Post by Spiral Out » December 11th, 2018, 8:42 pm

Spiral wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 9:28 pm
This would require eliminating the secret ballot, would it not? How can someone be held accountable, in a direct way instead of merely in a collective way, for their vote if the vote is kept secret? If the economy tanks under Trump, a Trump voter can plausibly deny voting for Trump.
What, if anything, would be wrong with eliminating secret ballots? Even so, with current technologies, it could easily be determined who voted for which candidate, especially since there would be a requirement for positive identification in order to vote, presumably with the soon-to-be mandatory "RealId". My point is that if it's such an important duty for citizens to vote, then why aren't those citizens held responsible for something that important?

Trump is acting like a wannabe dictator, calling for his opponents to be imprisoned, banning media outlets that challenge his policies, threatening to shut down the government if he doesn't get what he wants "through the military", etc. It's bewildering that more people in the political arena aren't sounding the alarm on that.
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