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Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

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Steve3007
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » January 25th, 2018, 12:57 pm

Incidental point:
Frost wrote: I must say the WA Post is not exactly reputable
Why do you mention the "WA Post" (Washington Post)? The poll seems to have been conducted by Ipsos.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 25th, 2018, 1:12 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 25th, 2018, 12:57 pm
Incidental point:
Frost wrote: I must say the WA Post is not exactly reputable
Why do you mention the "WA Post" (Washington Post)? The poll seems to have been conducted by Ipsos.
Thanks for catching this mistake. I obviously misread something mentioned in one of the early responses and on top of that didn't check into it myself. I apologize for the error. However, take that part out of my post and I think it is still relevant :) Thanks again.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 25th, 2018, 2:16 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 25th, 2018, 12:50 pm
Hi Frost,

As I said, the survey seems to suggest that a large number of people seems to agree with some of the aims of white supremacist groups. Whether that mean they are white supremacists - who knows? I guess it depends on how much you think one has to agree with a given group before being equated with that group.

So, can you give any more details about the reasons why you agree with the statement “white people are currently under attack in this country [USA]."? How would you define "being under attack" in this context?
Well we in fact have laws that discriminate against whites, particularly white males. This also exists in universities even though official affirmative action was ended. Interestingly, it seems Asians are starting to get fed up with the discrimination as well, since there is no reason a "person of color" should get into a school ahead of them solely based on the color of their skin. The whole "white guilt" oppression narrative is flatly absurd for them. I have a Russian coworker that moved here about 15 years ago that is particularly offended by the whole white thing since she obviously had nothing to do with America let alone slaves and finds much of it quite racist that she is treated differently because of the color of her skin. I guess I have watched too many YouTube videos which include things that I wouldn't believe if I didn't see them for myself, including students that are now recording their professors and putting it on youtube to show the level of bias. At college speaking events it seems most white males that stand up start off with "checking their privilege," or otherwise qualifying why they should even have a right to speak. James Demore with Google is another example, and his current class-action lawsuit against Google has damning evidence of racism and sexism at Google, which is thought to be okay by so many. I am guilty of recall bias here, so this is not to be taken as any formal support of this claim; I would need more time for that.

With that said, there is also question about what it means for"America must protect and preserve its White European heritage." This question is often taken to mean modern civilization itself, including classical liberalism, science, and free markets, which are all under attack. When the other side is saying the U.S. Constitution is meaningless because it was written by a bunch of white supremacists then it's not a leap to say that we need to preserve that heritage. When multi-culturalism is promoted ad nauseum, it's not a surprise for those with European heritage to start to think in terms of their culture and heritage as well, especially when it comes under attack. I wouldn't call that "white supremacy," though. I think it is part of the current moral panic going on in the U.S.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » January 25th, 2018, 4:13 pm

Frost:

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not American and have never been a student at a US university so can't really assess it. If any of what you say is true then it's clearly very, very different from the UK. Can you give me an example of a US law which specifically discriminates against white males?

From my perspective as a non US citizen who has never lived in the US but has frequently traveled there on business and vacation the things you say in your second paragraph about US white European heritage seem very odd and very different from the impression I have gained with my limited experience.

From a distance it seems that US citizens are constantly reminded of that heritage, of the US Constitution and the people who wrote it, every day. As I understand it, US school children pledge allegiance to the American flag regularly and the idea of the USA and its Constitution being the best form of government in the world seems to pervade all areas of life. This seems quite alien to me. We certainly don't have any such thing in the UK! The idea of pledging allegiance to the Union Flag would seem ridiculous to most British people. And it seems odd to me that in that environment you would still seem to think that this heritage is under attack. From an outsider's perspective, the opposite appears to be the case. Obviously in the Trump era this seems particularly true.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 25th, 2018, 6:39 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 25th, 2018, 4:13 pm
Frost:

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not American and have never been a student at a US university so can't really assess it. If any of what you say is true then it's clearly very, very different from the UK. Can you give me an example of a US law which specifically discriminates against white males?

From my perspective as a non US citizen who has never lived in the US but has frequently traveled there on business and vacation the things you say in your second paragraph about US white European heritage seem very odd and very different from the impression I have gained with my limited experience.

From a distance it seems that US citizens are constantly reminded of that heritage, of the US Constitution and the people who wrote it, every day. As I understand it, US school children pledge allegiance to the American flag regularly and the idea of the USA and its Constitution being the best form of government in the world seems to pervade all areas of life. This seems quite alien to me. We certainly don't have any such thing in the UK! The idea of pledging allegiance to the Union Flag would seem ridiculous to most British people. And it seems odd to me that in that environment you would still seem to think that this heritage is under attack. From an outsider's perspective, the opposite appears to be the case. Obviously in the Trump era this seems particularly true.
I would have to do homework at home for specific laws, but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 has paved the way for the antidiscrimination laws that have set up quotas for minorities. Currently, Google is under two lawsuits, one for discriminating against white males and the other for discriminating against women. The reason for the latter is that any deviation from equal representation is taken as prima facie evidence of discrimination, and the former is a result of companies attempting to pursue equal representation through actual discriminatory policy which is illegal under U.S. law. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. This is why I am against anti-discrimination laws for private companies.

Unfortunately, some court decisions have interpreted the law to mean that white people can be discriminated against since supposedly the Civil Rights Act was intended to protect blacks, not whites. I would have to dig up the court case, but this has led to discrimination against whites and now Asians (and yes, the term “Asian” is as problematic as “white” anyway). Needless to say many whites do not find this acceptable, but disagreement can lead to hostile attack and accusations of white supremacy.

Your perception of the U.S. in that respect is interesting, and of course it depends on where you are and what schools. I am from California, although not from the very liberal areas. I was going to offer my perception of things, but that is hopelessly biased. I will simply say that my experience is quite different from yours :) I must also say that while there is a slowly growing minority of white ethno-nationalists in response to these attacks, it is not influential by any means, nor is most of their rhetoric white supremacist. My perception is of a moral panic where the nation freaks out that an event with a couple hundred actual white supremacists means that there is some major movement going on. I would find it amusing if it weren’t so sad that for the last 50 years identity politics has been pushed, and now finally whites are starting to think maybe they should get involved and now they’re labeled white supremacists :)

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Belindi » January 26th, 2018, 6:20 am

Frost:
Race can also play a role in which students enroll in college. A 2007 study found that African Americans are more likely to delay enrolling in college.[144] The National Center for Education Statistics reports that between 2003 and 2009 rates of immediate college enrollment increased for Asian Americans and whites, but not for African Americans.[142] The 2011 Condition of Education study found that in 2008, 63% of college students were white, while 14 percent were African American and 12 percent were Hispanic.[142] Minority groups tend to remain the most underrepresented at more selective universities. This is despite programs like Affirmative Action that seek to provide underrepresented students with greater access to colleges. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, African American students suffer the most in regards to under-representation at more selective universities.[160] Consider that the cumulative percent change for African American students at open access universities has increased by 113.6% since 1994, but that at top tier universities it has barely changed, having gone down by 0.3%.[161] At Harvard, 6.5% of undergraduates were black in 2013, while it was 7.4% in 1994.[160] At universities focusing on bachelors, and graduate degrees African American enrollment in 2013 had only increased by 3% since 1994.

According to the Pew Research Center, Hispanic students college enrollment has increased by 240% since 1996, more than their African American or White counterparts.[162] However, this growth is similarly at the open access colleges and does not translate into enrollment at four-year colleges. A study by the Pew Research Center, claimed that "Young Hispanic college students are less likely than their white counterparts to enroll in a four-year college (56% versus 72%), they are less likely to attend a selective college, less likely to be enrolled in college full time, and less likely to complete a bachelor’s degree."[163] Given this information, it is clear that increased college enrollment may not mean that Hispanic students are reaping the benefits of completing a college degree.

Miscellaneous Issues

Race can play a part in a student's persistence rate in college: Drop-out rates are highest with the Native American and African American population, both greater than 50 percent.[151] Caucasians and Asian Americans had the lowest dropout rates. Another issue related to race is faculty representation at universities. According to data from the U.S. Department of Education, full-time faculty remain heavily white at universities across the country. In 2013, 78% of full-time faculty members nationwide were white.
[164]

Are you referring to and objecting to loans and grants that are designed to benefit poorer students?

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » January 26th, 2018, 6:37 am

Frost wrote:I would have to do homework at home for specific laws, but the Civil Rights Act of 1964 has paved the way for the antidiscrimination laws that have set up quotas for minorities.
On the face of it there appears to be an internal contradiction here. As I understand it the Civil Rights Act outlaws discrimination on the grounds of race. How can an anti-discrimination law be used to set up quotas for minorities? Surely a quota for a minority is, by definition, discrimination? Where I live "affirmative action" is known as "positive discrimination". The 1964 Civil Rights Act seems to outlaw discrimination and as far as I can see it doesn't distinguish between different types of discrimination on the basis of their polarity.

I can see how a case might be made for positive discrimination, but I don't see how that case could be based on the Civil Rights Act.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Steve3007 » January 26th, 2018, 7:59 am

Frost wrote:Currently, Google is under two lawsuits, one for discriminating against white males and the other for discriminating against women. The reason for the latter is that any deviation from equal representation is taken as prima facie evidence of discrimination, and the former is a result of companies attempting to pursue equal representation through actual discriminatory policy which is illegal under U.S. law. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. This is why I am against anti-discrimination laws for private companies.
If what you say about those two lawsuits against Google is true, I see your point here. But presumably a solution would be to simply apply anti-discrimination laws consistently or, if positive discrimination is deemed to be necessary, alter the law to reflect this.
Frost wrote:Unfortunately, some court decisions have interpreted the law to mean that white people can be discriminated against since supposedly the Civil Rights Act was intended to protect blacks, not whites.
If that is what they have done, then it seems clear to me, at least on an initial inspection, that they are wrong. Regardless of the environment which led to it being passed into law, the Civil Rights Act appears to simply outlaw discrimination on the ground of (among other things) race. If it is decided that some forms of discrimination are, for some reason, necessary then I would have thought the sensible thing to do would be to reflect that as unambiguously as possible in legislation.

But, of course, any legislation which mentions the concept of "race" is bound to be ambiguous to some extent, because race is such an ill-defined concept.
I would have to dig up the court case, but this has led to discrimination against whites and now Asians (and yes, the term “Asian” is as problematic as “white” anyway). Needless to say many whites do not find this acceptable, but disagreement can lead to hostile attack and accusations of white supremacy.
It seems difficult to keep conversations about subjects which people feel strongly about rational and reasonable.
Frost wrote:Your perception of the U.S. in that respect is interesting, and of course it depends on where you are and what schools. I am from California, although not from the very liberal areas. I was going to offer my perception of things, but that is hopelessly biased. I will simply say that my experience is quite different from yours :) I must also say that while there is a slowly growing minority of white ethno-nationalists in response to these attacks, it is not influential by any means, nor is most of their rhetoric white supremacist. My perception is of a moral panic where the nation freaks out that an event with a couple hundred actual white supremacists means that there is some major movement going on. I would find it amusing if it weren’t so sad that for the last 50 years identity politics has been pushed, and now finally whites are starting to think maybe they should get involved and now they’re labeled white supremacists :)
This kind of panic seems to work in contexts other than white supremacy too. People label other people all the time. I don't think people who defend what they might see as white culture are special in this sense. Perhaps they just notice it because, historically, they're not used to it happening to them? In the past, various negatives stereotypes of black men (e.g. as rapists of white women), in film and fiction, were routine, I believe. Perhaps being stereotyped comes as an affront to white males simply because they're less used to it?

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 26th, 2018, 10:39 am

Steve3007 wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 6:37 am
On the face of it there appears to be an internal contradiction here. As I understand it the Civil Rights Act outlaws discrimination on the grounds of race. How can an anti-discrimination law be used to set up quotas for minorities? Surely a quota for a minority is, by definition, discrimination? Where I live "affirmative action" is known as "positive discrimination". The 1964 Civil Rights Act seems to outlaw discrimination and as far as I can see it doesn't distinguish between different types of discrimination on the basis of their polarity.

I can see how a case might be made for positive discrimination, but I don't see how that case could be based on the Civil Rights Act.
Internal contradiction is rife in these policies, which is the problem. I found the case, which is Grutter v. Bollinger 2003. Here is a section from Wikipedia on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger wrote: "When the University of Michigan Law School denied admission to Barbara Grutter, a Michigan resident with a 3.8 GPA and 161 LSAT score,[1] she filed this suit, alleging that respondents had discriminated against her on the basis of race in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment, Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as well as 42 U.S.C. § 1981; that she was rejected because the Law School uses race as a "predominant" factor, giving applicants belonging to certain minority groups a significantly greater chance of admission than students with similar credentials from disfavored racial groups; and that respondents had no compelling interest to justify that use of race. Lee Bollinger (then-President of the University of Michigan), was the named defendant of this case.[2]

[...]

The Court's majority ruling, authored by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, held that the United States Constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body." The Court held that the law school's interest in obtaining a "critical mass" of minority students was indeed a "tailored use"."

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 26th, 2018, 11:19 am

Steve3007 wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 7:59 am
If what you say about those two lawsuits against Google is true, I see your point here. But presumably a solution would be to simply apply anti-discrimination laws consistently or, if positive discrimination is deemed to be necessary, alter the law to reflect this.
Court decisions like Grutter v. Bollinger 2003 effectively create law when they establish a legal precedent in such clear contradiction to the sentence meaning of the law such as the Civil Rights Act. It has, of course, been taken advantage of my special interest groups and political bias. There was no scientific evidence in the ruling of Grutter v. Bollinger that there are " educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body." It is merely asserted based on ideologically driven persons.

The other problem that arose with the Civil Rights act is that you can rarely demonstrate racial discrimination. That is why there was a move to "implicit bias" which is abominable "research"---full of contradictions and methodological errors---and statistics have been used now as prima facie evidence of discrimination. It's pseudo-scientific nonsense that based some of the most basic errors, such as statistics crudely equating correlation with causation, yet it is now used to claim discrimination since actual demonstration of racism is difficult.

The Damore lawsuit is clearly in the right when it comes to rational legal principles, because it is clear that racial and sex discrimination is occurring in violation of the Civil Rights Act, as well as other provisions. But it is controversial because the definition of racism has been altered in universities to require power, which means white people cannot be discriminated against and any minority has cart blanche to be racist against whites. This is another reason whites may think they are being attacked.
Steve3007 wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 7:59 am
It seems difficult to keep conversations about subjects which people feel strongly about rational and reasonable.
I get what you mean here, but what I mean is that just calmly pointing out discrimination against white people and especially white males provokes hostile reaction. Damore got in trouble for a very rational and reasoned report on how to increase diversity in the workplace because he dared to suggest that there are sex differences which may account for preferences. The over-reaction is rather one-sided. Perhaps that's another reason whites may think that they are under attack, because even mere mention of basic facts results in backlash.
Steve3007 wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 7:59 am
This kind of panic seems to work in contexts other than white supremacy too. People label other people all the time. I don't think people who defend what they might see as white culture are special in this sense. Perhaps they just notice it because, historically, they're not used to it happening to them? In the past, various negatives stereotypes of black men (e.g. as rapists of white women), in film and fiction, were routine, I believe. Perhaps being stereotyped comes as an affront to white males simply because they're less used to it?
I agree. In the 90s it was the Satanic moral panic. But an affront is an affront, whether used to it or not.

I will suggest a 10 minute YouTube video that can give you an idea of the perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLGLOiAMqA0

I do not agree with everything this group puts forward, since they are ethno-nationalists, but you can at least get an idea of some of the things they are going against. The videos of the professors in it are interesting.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 26th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Just an observation: if you have to reach way back to college admission policies (something that impacts a tiny fraction of individuals) as evidence of a vast left wing conspiracy against the poor downtrodden white males in the US, you don't have an accuracy problem, necessarily, you have a relative perspective problem.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 26th, 2018, 2:35 pm

LuckyR wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 1:06 pm
Just an observation: if you have to reach way back to college admission policies (something that impacts a tiny fraction of individuals) as evidence of a vast left wing conspiracy against the poor downtrodden white males in the US, you don't have an accuracy problem, necessarily, you have a relative perspective problem.
I gave the example of James Damore. His lawsuit provides evidence of this systemic problem in tech companies. It's not just universities.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 26th, 2018, 3:11 pm

Frost wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 2:35 pm
LuckyR wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 1:06 pm
Just an observation: if you have to reach way back to college admission policies (something that impacts a tiny fraction of individuals) as evidence of a vast left wing conspiracy against the poor downtrodden white males in the US, you don't have an accuracy problem, necessarily, you have a relative perspective problem.
I gave the example of James Damore. His lawsuit provides evidence of this systemic problem in tech companies. It's not just universities.
Oh, okay, not only universities but also tech companies (where you have to to to a university to qualify for a job, duh). You get you are describing a subset of a subset, right?

Still not a big or universal problem.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 26th, 2018, 3:34 pm

LuckyR wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 3:11 pm

Oh, okay, not only universities but also tech companies (where you have to to to a university to qualify for a job, duh). You get you are describing a subset of a subset, right?

Still not a big or universal problem.
No, that’s not how the law works. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a federal law. The Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) case effectively made the federal law permissive of discrimination against whites. That's about as universal as you can get in the U.S.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Belindi » January 26th, 2018, 4:46 pm

From "Grutter v Bollinger:
ruled that the University of Michigan Law School had a compelling interest in promoting class diversity. The Court held that a race-conscious admissions process that may favor "underrepresented minority groups", but that also took into account many other factors evaluated on an individual basis for every applicant, did not amount to a quota system that would have been unconstitutional under Regents of the University of California v. Bakke.
Frost, note that there was no quota system.

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