Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

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Frost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 26th, 2018, 5:37 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 4:46 pm
From "Grutter v Bollinger:
ruled that the University of Michigan Law School had a compelling interest in promoting class diversity. The Court held that a race-conscious admissions process that may favor "underrepresented minority groups", but that also took into account many other factors evaluated on an individual basis for every applicant, did not amount to a quota system that would have been unconstitutional under Regents of the University of California v. Bakke.
Frost, note that there was no quota system.
Oh they effectively do have quota systems. They just call it something else to avoid legal trouble. It's like with the Affordable Care Act that created a penalty for those that didn't have health insurance, and to get around such an illegal law they referred to it as a "tax."

What is common today is simply to compare the racial diversity to the population and any discrepancy is taken to be prima facie evidence of discrimination, permitting discrimination of any "over-represented" groups. In this U.S. this has traditionally been whites, but now it is increasing occurring against Asians.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 27th, 2018, 2:10 am

Frost wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 3:34 pm
LuckyR wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 3:11 pm

Oh, okay, not only universities but also tech companies (where you have to to to a university to qualify for a job, duh). You get you are describing a subset of a subset, right?

Still not a big or universal problem.
No, that’s not how the law works. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a federal law. The Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) case effectively made the federal law permissive of discrimination against whites. That's about as universal as you can get in the U.S.
Not so much. Not getting callbacks for apartment for rent inquiries or when answering ads for ordinary jobs is universal. Not getting into law school or getting passed over for an executive position at Facebook is a 0.001 to 1.5 percent problem.
"As usual... it depends."

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Frost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 27th, 2018, 2:28 am

LuckyR wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 2:10 am

Not so much. Not getting callbacks for apartment for rent inquiries or when answering ads for ordinary jobs is universal. Not getting into law school or getting passed over for an executive position at Facebook is a 0.001 to 1.5 percent problem.
So I demonstrate that there is federal law that says it's okay to discriminate against whites and this is the response I get? Sounds like something a racist would say to defend racist laws.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 27th, 2018, 2:51 am

Frost wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 2:28 am
LuckyR wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 2:10 am

Not so much. Not getting callbacks for apartment for rent inquiries or when answering ads for ordinary jobs is universal. Not getting into law school or getting passed over for an executive position at Facebook is a 0.001 to 1.5 percent problem.
So I demonstrate that there is federal law that says it's okay to discriminate against whites and this is the response I get? Sounds like something a racist would say to defend racist laws.
Everyone with a modicum of life experience knows there is all kinds of discrimination in Real Life, no surprise there. But there is humour when observing a few express dismay (ah do declare!) when a tiny fraction of the unfairness happens to impact their tribe (even if they personally have not been passed over for anything).
"As usual... it depends."

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Frost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 27th, 2018, 3:10 am

LuckyR wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 2:51 am
Everyone with a modicum of life experience knows there is all kinds of discrimination in Real Life, no surprise there. But there is humour when observing a few express dismay (ah do declare!) when a tiny fraction of the unfairness happens to impact their tribe (even if they personally have not been passed over for anything).
Intellectual dishonesty and moral degeneracy are a bad combination. Continue to defend your racism you degenerate.

racist
adj. Of, relating to, or advocating racism.

Racism
n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

By definition, defending a law that is explicitly racist makes you racist. But of course you will continue your intellectual dishonesty to defend your moral degeneracy.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Belindi » January 27th, 2018, 4:36 am

Frost wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 5:37 pm
Belindi wrote:
January 26th, 2018, 4:46 pm
From "Grutter v Bollinger:



Frost, note that there was no quota system.
Oh they effectively do have quota systems. They just call it something else to avoid legal trouble. It's like with the Affordable Care Act that created a penalty for those that didn't have health insurance, and to get around such an illegal law they referred to it as a "tax."

What is common today is simply to compare the racial diversity to the population and any discrepancy is taken to be prima facie evidence of discrimination, permitting discrimination of any "over-represented" groups. In this U.S. this has traditionally been whites, but now it is increasing occurring against Asians.
What are "Asians"?
Do you know what criteria the greater American universities use to select students? If so, how do you know and what are your sources?

People who are not white are increasing in power and you are worried .
Please refer to Is white supremacy normal in the USA?
so that I can know which meaning of 'normal' you are debating about.

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Frost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 27th, 2018, 11:33 am

Belindi wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 4:36 am
What are "Asians"?
Do you know what criteria the greater American universities use to select students? If so, how do you know and what are your sources?

People who are not white are increasing in power and you are worried .
Please refer to Is white supremacy normal in the USA?
so that I can know which meaning of 'normal' you are debating about.

Asians is not very specific, but we are dealing with low-resolution statistics. It can mean ethnic Asians and Indians, broadly speaking.

Related to Grutter v. Bollinger, the dissenting opinion of Rehnquist describes the problem:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZD.html

This describes many more cases that get into the actual practices:

https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-in ... -the#_ftn7

I don't know why you would add in that I am "worried" that non-whites are in power. What ever happened to liberal ideals of equality before the law? Why are you insinuating that I am bringing this up out of a concern of non-whites being in power? Justice Thomas' dissenting opinion in Grutter v. Bollinger sums it up well:
The Constitution abhors classifications based on race, not only because those classifications can harm favored races or are based on illegitimate motives, but also because every time the government places citizens on racial registers and makes race relevant to the provision of burdens or benefits, it demeans us all. “Purchased at the price of immeasurable human suffering, the equal protection principle reflects our Nation’s understanding that such classifications ultimately have a destructive impact on the individual and our society.” Adarand Construction, Inc. v. Peña,, 515 U.S. 200, 240 (1995)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZX1.html

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 28th, 2018, 3:11 am

Frost wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 3:10 am
LuckyR wrote:
January 27th, 2018, 2:51 am
Everyone with a modicum of life experience knows there is all kinds of discrimination in Real Life, no surprise there. But there is humour when observing a few express dismay (ah do declare!) when a tiny fraction of the unfairness happens to impact their tribe (even if they personally have not been passed over for anything).
Intellectual dishonesty and moral degeneracy are a bad combination. Continue to defend your racism you degenerate.

racist
adj. Of, relating to, or advocating racism.

Racism
n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

By definition, defending a law that is explicitly racist makes you racist. But of course you will continue your intellectual dishonesty to defend your moral degeneracy.
Hhmmmm... you do make a few important and well thought out comments and observations here.

Just kidding, only standard keyboard bravado.

Good luck to you in your future endeavors. YNI...
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Belindi » January 28th, 2018, 4:58 am

Frost, isn't it within the law for an American law school to admit students on the basis of ability , and where two (hypothetical) students are equal in ability to prefer the African American to the white skinned applicant for the following two reasons:

1. The African American by virtue of her low ascribed status has more persistence or native wit that enabled her to be equal in achieved status, despite social disadvantage, to the white skinned applicant. This exception may of course apply to the applicant from any disadvantaged background such as unemployed parents , physical disability, and so on.

2. The African American applicant by virtue of her life experience within an ethnic minority can add balance to the law school's output of qualified lawyers.

The above would act simply as casting votes so that the law is served.

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Frost
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 28th, 2018, 12:05 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 28th, 2018, 4:58 am
Frost, isn't it within the law for an American law school to admit students on the basis of ability , and where two (hypothetical) students are equal in ability to prefer the African American to the white skinned applicant for the following two reasons:

1. The African American by virtue of her low ascribed status has more persistence or native wit that enabled her to be equal in achieved status, despite social disadvantage, to the white skinned applicant. This exception may of course apply to the applicant from any disadvantaged background such as unemployed parents , physical disability, and so on.

2. The African American applicant by virtue of her life experience within an ethnic minority can add balance to the law school's output of qualified lawyers.

The above would act simply as casting votes so that the law is served.
Yes, that is permitted within the law, but the point is that the evidence shows that they are admitting minorities that are underqualified. However, holding Asian students to higher standards is starting to create tension since they are a minority that are being discriminated against when they are well-qualified. Asians tend not to speak out against abuses, for whatever reason, but one can hope that they can help fight the good fight against racial discrimination.

It would benefit all in the long-run, including those minorities that are receiving preferential treatment. Nothing like using racial discrimination to admit underqualified minorities into schools that are above their skill level, raising their drop-out rates and the rate of fudging grades so that you don't admit all these minorities and then fail them, only to put out underqualified minorities into the work place. It just reinforces racial stereotypes, because students notice that the bottom of the class are the black kids, or that the underqualified professionals are the black ones. I even had a personal experience with this when I got a new doctor and found out she was black...I don't care about the color of her skin, but I am well-aware that she graduated when affirmative action was in place, so I can't help but wonder how qualified she really is. Sad. :(

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Fooloso4 » January 28th, 2018, 1:03 pm

Frost:
I don't care about the color of her skin, but I am well-aware that she graduated when affirmative action was in place, so I can't help but wonder how qualified she really is.
You are conflating several different things. Admittance under affirmative action does not mean graduation under affirmative action. Getting into medical school does not mean graduating medical school and graduating medical school does not mean passing the testing process. The tests are not weighed differently for minorities.
Nothing like using racial discrimination to admit underqualified minorities into schools that are above their skill level, raising their drop-out rates and the rate of fudging grades so that you don't admit all these minorities and then fail them
The problem is not under qualified minorities but under qualified students. Grade inflation is a systemic problem. It could be argued that it is due to the privilege of wealth and a shift in academia toward bureaucracy, growth, and profit that the graduation rate of unqualified students of all races and ethnicities is so high.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Frost » January 28th, 2018, 1:45 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
January 28th, 2018, 1:03 pm
You are conflating several different things. Admittance under affirmative action does not mean graduation under affirmative action. Getting into medical school does not mean graduating medical school and graduating medical school does not mean passing the testing process. The tests are not weighed differently for minorities.
Oh but they were. That was the problem. With Affirmative Action, under-qualified (though generally otherwise intelligent) blacks were admitted into schools and classes operating at a level beyond their skill. They didn't magically become more skilled, and in order to avoid a PR nightmare of flunking the Affirmative Action students they were given passing grades.
Fooloso4 wrote:
January 28th, 2018, 1:03 pm
The problem is not under qualified minorities but under qualified students. Grade inflation is a systemic problem. It could be argued that it is due to the privilege of wealth and a shift in academia toward bureaucracy, growth, and profit that the graduation rate of unqualified students of all races and ethnicities is so high.
I've always thought the grading curve was ridiculous, but that doesn't change the systemic discrimination against better qualified students based on their race.

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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » January 29th, 2018, 2:36 am

I think there is an issue coming to the surface here that has nothing to do with race, sex or religion. The simply truth is that more and more today the idea of "equality" is being pushed; ironically it is being pushed as an "ideal."

When we start saying that there are 30% of people in the country with brown eyes and over 5'8" therefore we should enforce the rule that this group of people should be represented in governmental positions by 30%, regardless of qualifications or relevant skills; I think there is a serious problem.

Outrage seems to be the biggest driving force. People are thrilled to be outraged, thrilled to think that they are saying something "meaningful" and combating some "evil" in society.

Poverty stricken people are in poverty because they are in a position that is difficult to get out of. Differences in culture are stringer than racial differences most likely. Given that the largest difference between any two human beings is vastly closer than the closest genetic resemblance between two primates I don't really think we're talking about any big difference on an individual to individual basis. The biggest difference are in physical strengths between men and women, the rest has so much overlap that it is barely worth registering given the complexity and diversity of factors involved from upbringing, religious beliefs, ...; or to cut to the point cultural differences (which include a swathe of items - which in and of themselves hold within greater sets of items.)

To enforce a set of rules for any particular "group" is a detriment as far as I can see. Items of concern like apartheid were removed because they were an enforced set of rules, it was not about imposing rules. The issue is more about dealing with the fall out in as manageable a way as possible. I don't think playing the victim is helpful, although from a psychological perspective pretty much every human being is well aware of taking up this position in some form or another (some people grow out of it very quickly and others do not; maybe because they suffer enough hardship to reinforce their 'cry baby attitude' rather than act with resolve and fortitude in the face of harsh adversity.)

People suffer. Suffering IS freedom. I don't want to live in a totalitarian state, I don't want an Orwellian world. It does seem that more and more people are actively pushing toward such a thing but they are blind to the possible negative outcomes of their actions.
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by LuckyR » January 29th, 2018, 3:44 am

The Affirmative Action topic has been done in other threads at length already. The reality is that in graduate, medical and law schools, there are many times more qualified applicants than there are slots to admit students into. In this context "qualified" means: meets the entrance requirements and will likely graduate. That's why these schools are so competitive, after all.

So what does the term "under qualified" mean? It means whatever you want it to mean.

Everyone agrees (or should) that admitting unqualified applicants for any reason, including athletic prowess, who their father is, how much their family donated to the university or what race they happen to be is a bad idea. OTOH, it is widely accepted that using any of the above things to help admit qualified applicants is commonplace.

Isn't it interesting that I have yet to see a thread complaining about the preference children of alumni donors receive?
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Re: Is white supremacy normal in the USA?

Post by Burning ghost » January 29th, 2018, 4:14 am

Lucky -

Corruption exists. The world isn't perfect. If someone is "under qualified" it certainly does mean something. It means they are not qualified to do the job, in the sense that they've not shown any particular competence in this or that area. It does not mean that you need qualifications to get a job it means that qualifications are how we gauge general industriousness and technical knowhow in this or that area. The individual may fail to "qualify" in a number of other not related areas - such as personal disposition or general attitude.

There seems to be some grey area where "prejudices" are easily conflated with "preferences." People will generally not hire someone who they think will cause disruption within the work environment (unless that is there aim for some reason.) Given that we're mainly visual animals a lot of emphasis is put on physical appearance, which includes things like how serious they interviewee looks, how friendly they are, their sexuality, posture and such. All of this then plays into the interviewers experiences of people who physically compose themselves in a similar way to the interviewee. For a personal example of this you can most likely relate to this with sexual attraction. Once you've fallen for someone you tend to act toward people who present certain parts of their characteristics in a particularly positive way - the best we can do is be partly aware of these unconscious machinations, but not become overly obsessed with them.

It isn't particularly interesting to me because I'm not from the US. I would find it surprising if rich parents didn't do all they could, and pay for, the best start for their children. I don't think doing this is the "best" for all children, but it could be argued that for some such action may help them in the long term.

There is certainly danger in using educational institutions as a consumable product. I have been looking at both sides of that argument for sometime. It's difficult to say the least! When universities are paid more because more students pass the exam I find that worrying.
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