Announcement: Your votes are in! The January 2019 Philosophy Book of the Month is The Runaway Species: How Human Creativity Remakes the World by David Eagleman and Anthony Brandt.

Simple, Fair Immigration System

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Dlaw
Posts: 424
Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Dlaw » January 17th, 2018, 2:34 pm

First standard: Demographic risk assessment performed largely by AI. Rational system that can be applied to all bilateral agreements.

Second step: Favor young, single women headed to University or trade school. Education visas leverage student supervision by the institution, give the government leverage over the immigrant, force frequent check-ins and create lots of information about the student.

Third step: For riskier immigrants, create a system where 3-5 years' employment by an approved company or organization OUTSIDE the U.S. creates a real employment record and, again, lots of check-in and information.

Fourth Step: Refugees - Women and children first, always. Reduces the population of broken societies plus, putting the men into Step 3 gives them extra motivation to work for reputable aid and redevelopment agencies rather than falling in with opportunists and militias.

Thereby the US immigration system would become a performance-based system rather than the creepy "merit based" concept.

Thoughts?

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 18th, 2018, 3:48 pm

Hmmmm. What happened to "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses"?

User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 3153
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by LuckyR » January 18th, 2018, 4:46 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
January 18th, 2018, 3:48 pm
Hmmmm. What happened to "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses"?
Alas, it never existed. Xenophobia existed when those words were written, very similar if not identical to that we see today. There is nothing new under the sun...
"As usual... it depends."

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 18th, 2018, 5:16 pm

You mean, nobody really opened their arms to immigrants as the statue, in word, does. Mostly, quite true.

But not so true today: now that the US has settled into a multicultural society, it has become much closer to this word, especially given how universities compete for the best and these often come from outside; and the same applies to business: they want immigration that allows the worlds geniuses to come and stay here and be at home; now that we have a nearly integrated society, we are largely ok about immigration. Most people do not harbor resentment against others of color or ethnic difference, these days. Only those who live in a parochial world and don't get out much--and there are lots of these, I know (ergo Trump)-- only these still wonder where the neighborhood has gone. And they will pass away as a cultural feature.

Dlaw
Posts: 424
Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Dlaw » January 20th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
January 18th, 2018, 3:48 pm
Hmmmm. What happened to "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses"?
Oh, listen if you read some of the files of the people who get REJECTED for asylum status, it will absolutely break your heart.

As an American it makes me sick with shame that America has totally turned against compassion in its immigration policy.

Dlaw
Posts: 424
Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Dlaw » January 20th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Hereandnow wrote:
January 18th, 2018, 5:16 pm
You mean, nobody really opened their arms to immigrants as the statue, in word, does. Mostly, quite true.

But not so true today: now that the US has settled into a multicultural society, it has become much closer to this word, especially given how universities compete for the best and these often come from outside; and the same applies to business: they want immigration that allows the worlds geniuses to come and stay here and be at home; now that we have a nearly integrated society, we are largely ok about immigration. Most people do not harbor resentment against others of color or ethnic difference, these days. Only those who live in a parochial world and don't get out much--and there are lots of these, I know (ergo Trump)-- only these still wonder where the neighborhood has gone. And they will pass away as a cultural feature.
Passing thought: I happen to be listening the the History of Byzantium podcast, and I'm amazed at the extent to which "immigration" in that world was so often the wholesale importing of populations to replace populations who had fled from raiding.

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 20th, 2018, 4:08 pm

Dlaw:
In Baltimore they call it white flight. But Baltimore's struggle shows real signs of growth, though it'll take time. White flight is a reversing trend. And the Byzantines didn't have a constitution we have that, though imperfectly, imposes integration. When whites stop being the majority in the US things will change dramatically. And MIT and Harvard aren't going anywhere. That will make America great (again? Please).

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 20th, 2018, 4:11 pm

And this: "As an American it makes me sick with shame that America has totally turned against compassion in its immigration policy" caught me off guard. Efficiency in vetting leads to the kind of control that always second guesses compassion.

Eduk
Posts: 2270
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Eduk » January 24th, 2018, 6:29 am

I have a simpler system. Open borders for all countries in the world. Done.
Unknown means unknown.

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 24th, 2018, 10:59 am

Done. Then chaos. Millions would parish. Governments topple. If they were just people, live bodies, sure, I guess. But they're not. They are walking belief systems, and the countries from which they come are armed, ideological and dangerous. Ugh! I sound like a conservative rather than my old hippie self. But just forget it. this simple system would require time and social evolution. And we do not want a revolution. Millions would parish. Governments topple.

Eduk
Posts: 2270
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Eduk » January 24th, 2018, 11:26 am

Ah kind of hard to prove one way or the other. I didn't say unarmed borders or closing ones eyes and hoping for the best I'm just suggesting freedom of movement might not be so bad as you might imagine. For example you seem to be picturing a country like Russia (for example) going oh what's that freedom of movement, cool, I'll move my army into London then and now London is mine. Of course it's kind of hard to move an army without anyone noticing. Or perhaps you are imagining the whole of Afghanistan deciding to move to New York? I mean perhaps something like that would happen, it's hard to be sure. I suspect that getting the whole of Afghanistan to agree would be the hard thing.
Let me give a real world example. It is claimed that the drug trade between Mexico and the USA would be prevented by a big wall. But in reality the majority of drugs enter through official ports and check posts so really a big wall would do very little. Of course these are complex problems. But I am for the freer movement of people in general. Certainly I would wish to go where ever I felt like.
Unknown means unknown.

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 24th, 2018, 12:36 pm

I am thinking open borders equals no restraint on migration, in or out. The visa as a document permitting this kind of thing would be rendered useless. It is population shifts, counties loosing their populations and working employees, the dramatic exoduses, the cultural upheavals, the dangerous people let loose, the massive flight from misery, etc.

Unless you are simply talking about one day in the future wouldn't it be nice? In which case i agree.

Eduk
Posts: 2270
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Eduk » January 24th, 2018, 1:29 pm

Unless you are simply talking about one day in the future wouldn't it be nice? In which case i agree.
I would suggest steps to one day make it the future. Exactly what those steps would be I am not in a position to say.
It is population shifts, counties loosing their populations and working employees, the dramatic exoduses, the cultural upheavals, the dangerous people let loose, the massive flight from misery, etc.
Well similar fears were/are levelled at free movement within the European union and while free movement is not without any issues the cataclysmic predictions haven't come close to happening. A dangerous person in England is a dangerous person in France and in neither scenario are they let loose.
The one point which I think is tricky is the flight from misery. As running from a problem might be a solution on a small scale it isn't a solution on a large scale.
Unknown means unknown.

User avatar
Hereandnow
Posts: 2065
Joined: July 11th, 2012, 9:16 pm
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Hereandnow » January 24th, 2018, 2:20 pm

Eduk:
Unless you are simply talking about one day in the future wouldn't it be nice? In which case i agree.
I would suggest steps to one day make it the future. Exactly what those steps would be I am not in a position to say.

Well similar fears were/are levelled at free movement within the European union and while free movement is not without any issues the cataclysmic predictions haven't come close to happening. A dangerous person in England is a dangerous person in France and in neither scenario are they let loose.
The one point which I think is tricky is the flight from misery. As running from a problem might be a solution on a small scale it isn't a solution on a large scale.
The Eu already had very open borders. But so called third world countries were not invited to this. These guys I worry about. Not France.

User avatar
Scribbler60
Posts: 176
Joined: December 17th, 2015, 11:48 am

Re: Simple, Fair Immigration System

Post by Scribbler60 » January 24th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Immigration is a really hot topic here in Canada.

The Minister of Immigration, Ahmed Hussen, at the behest of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau (Liberal Party of Canada), has decided that Canada will welcome something like 1 million immigrants over the next three years.

Consultations were done with the business community regarding the levels but the decision was made before the consultations ever took place (I have this info from my local MP, also a Liberal).

Up until relatively recently, economic immigrants were the favoured ones; that is, those who had substantial resources, were opening businesses, were investing, etc. However, that's changed. The focus is now on "family reunification", such as bringing parents, grandparents and other elderly relatives over from the "old country" to Canada.

This has caused some pushback,.

But here are the facts (many of which you can find here: Immigration and Ethnocultural Diversity in Canada):

There was a time when immigrants were needed to open up the country, farm the land, build the cities, populate the outlying areas. But those days are done; they've been done for over 60 years. Immigrants now primarily settle in our three major cities - Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.

Economic studies have shown that immigration is driving up housing prices and depressing wages. And those three cities I mentioned are already suffering from overcrowding. Housing prices in Toronto and Vancouver are the highest in the country and continue to climb. Transit is overburdened. Social agencies are stretched beyond the breaking point. Eight-hour waits in hospital emergency rooms are the norm, not the exception. Yet somehow Canadians are supposed to welcome a million more newcomers over the next three years.

As well, the "family reunification" immigrants are generally well past working age. They will have the benefit of all of Canada's social programs, including health care, without ever having paid into the system.

Studies in Europe have shown that once a foreign-born population reaches about 21%, right-wing nationalism starts to spike. Currently, the percentage of foreign-born people in Canada - the highest in the G8 - is 20.6%. And guess what? Right-wing nationalism and its violent tendencies is starting to spike. Source: Predicting the Rise of EU Right-Wing Populism in Response to Unbalanced Immigration

For the record, personally I'm all for a progressive, thoughtful immigration system that welcomes the best and brightest from around the world, whether their home is Ireland or Iran or India. And, of course, I have no problem using tax dollars to help refugees escaping war, famine, pestilence and social unrest. But the fact is that welcoming a million new immigrants over the next three years, many of whom will be well beyond working age, comes at a social and economic cost. It is not unreasonable to be able to talk about and examine those costs.

Post Reply