How to define antisemitism

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Steve3007 wrote: August 5th, 2018, 4:30 am
Greta wrote:There are certain types of Christians with a special competitive hatred of Jews. The pattern follows that of the KKK - a Christian branch famous for its antisemitism - where listings of all the alleged problems caused by Jews, along with selective readings of their texts out of context, and this is used to to justify discrimination.
Yes, that's clearly true, as Newme's staggeringly antisemitic posts above illustrate.
But they are only antisemitic to the degree that they are not true.

And they are justified to the degree to which Jews tend to favour Jews over 'goyim'.

The above posts by Newme, are on the face of it antisemitic. However, they do contain facts about the degree to which Jews have key jobs in society.
The mistake of Newme is to see Jews as an amorphous blob hell bent on giving privilege and favour to other Jews, or to Jewish ways of thinking.

Racism works on two basic levels; positive and negative. I submit that they are both bad, and feed one another.
Let me invite you to consider the following question. If there was an institution which gave money to promote "The White People's Prize for Science", or the "White Literary Prize" would you consider that racist?
So why would we not think that the NAACP is also racist? Because Black people do suffer from prejudice? However poor white people resent the help that black people can get that is denied to them. Positive racism leads to negative racism.
When we look at Jewish prizes can we also justify it because of prejudice?

It seems to me that race is an unjustifiable category to understand humans, as when people decide to divide themselves into groups they naturally have to exclude others from that group. They cannot then expect to be treated equally. And if a person of another 'race" objects that they are different, are they going to deny that difference, however arbitrary that difference is?
So are Jews going to expect people like Newme to simply ignore the fact that Paul Wolfowitz, Alan Greenspan, the Koch brothers, George Soros, Ben Bernanke and many other leading Jewish Financiers who have done very well out of austerity and the crash of 2008, without suspecting that they are part of some sort of club?

Having cosy exclusive clubs like the "Jewish Literary Prize", and the "Jewish Prize for Science" are bound to lead to suspicion.

Right now the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), have a definition of antisemitism so tight that it is impossible to criticise Israel on human rights abuse, with being accused of antisemitism.
If you listen on the BBC they do a sleight of hand when attacking Labour as they have removed some of the more ridiculous parts of the definition, The BBC ask why Labour have not adopted the "Internationally accepted" definition.
The IHRA definition is NOT accepted world wide, and not certainly by anyone with an ounce of intelligence.
Has the BBC not thought it through? Or are they playing the undermine JC game?
Why has 'antisemitism' been heard daily for the last 10 months on Radio 4, a relentless **** at fan throwing? Why, when the actual complaints are largely built on an intellectually bankrupt definition of antisemitism?
The answer can only be that there are vested interests which demand that JC can never come to power, and that antisemitism is just another stick to hit him with.

And the more Jews act like a divisive group the more they get criticised and the more racism becomes real. In the same way Tony Robinson is rallying so-called "white", and "English" people in his more to a pogrom in the UK.

All racism is bad positive and negative
Gertie
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Gertie »

It's pretty obvious this issue is being exploited to the max by the anti-Corbynists, who are many and in positions of power, influence and perception manipulation.


They've 'cried wolf' so often on Corbyn, (last time he was a Czech spy or something lol) my first reaction is to be sceptical. But this has caught hold big time. And some of his colleagues are very vocal about it, tho again it tends to be 'the usual suspects' who will have a go at him over whatever.


It's also significant that no other party undergoes this level of scrutiny over its internal policies and discord/discussions, and I suspect the Tories would come off a lot worse if they bothered to take such issues seriously.


So that's the background to the latest scandal.


It took me a while to take it seriously, because anti-semitism just isn't on my personal radar. I've (knowingly) met few Jewish people, and aside from some olden days language (eg associating Jewishness with stinginess), it's not something I'm aware of coming across. It's also something I've always associated with the right wing nutters, not the left. And more recently the conspiracy illuminati type nutters. Hello Newme! Tho the Left has always been associated with supporting the Palestinians. Rightly so. And recent moves by this disgusting Israeli government are murderous, racist and apartheid. I expect with Trump behind them, they'll continue to feel emboldened.


So it takes a conscious effort for me to remember that just because I haven't directly experienced something, or noticed it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And if you're part of a marginalised group yourself, you're often much more aware of the coded language and concepts which might go over your head otherwise.

Still, no way do I think Corbyn is racist. Hodge lost the plot there, and I wish she'd just apologise, but given her background, I'd just let it go.

Is there a problem in the party - I expect a party of hundreds of thousands has some obnoxious bigots, and some unconscious ones, so that has to be dealt with. Much faster and more decisively. Actual examples of blatant/unambiguous anti-semitism seem thin on the ground, so the fact that Corbyn once shared a platform with this person or that, liked a tweet, etc, get headlines. And the adoption of the IHRA definition has become a central issue. I think the Labour Party version is fine, but it's always important to give weight to the people directly affected, and Labour is rightly consulting now.


On the whole, I'd probably be inclined to accept the full list of examples, and add a disclaimer about the difference between Israel the country and government, and Jewish people.

But like Corbyn, I'm not a fan of authoritarian leadership, I value policy and process. Some characterise that as weakness, but I think it's a childish concept of leadership. Should Labour abandon policy and process in this instance for the sake of real politik? Yeah, I think so. Both 'sides' have good faith concerns, loss is minimal and the potential curbing of an ongoing crisis is worth it imo.
Gertie
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Gertie »

Thomas Hobbes
So are Jews going to expect people like Newme to simply ignore the fact that Paul Wolfowitz, Alan Greenspan, the Koch brothers, George Soros, Ben Bernanke and many other leading Jewish Financiers who have done very well out of austerity and the crash of 2008, without suspecting that they are part of some sort of club?

Having cosy exclusive clubs like the "Jewish Literary Prize", and the "Jewish Prize for Science" are bound to lead to suspicion.
This is how conspiracy theories work, cherry picking tenuous links to create some grand picture of baddies plotting together.

When it comes to Jewish people, they have been appallingly victimised, most obscenely in Nazi Germany, using this very technique. There are real life consequences. Hence we should be extremely careful about justifying such notions, or defending them. Many, many Jewish people lost loved ones based on feeding such ideas, and for them particularly it's playing with fire.
Fooloso4
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Fooloso4 »

Many Jews make a distinction between Judaism and Zionism and there are many Jewish Israeli citizens who are critical of their government. In fact, self-criticism is a self-corrective and as old as Judaism itself.

There is a difference between criticism and disparagement. I think most of us have no trouble making the distinction, but when one attempts to establish rules, however well intentioned, problems arise.



ThomasHobbes:
When we look at Jewish prizes can we also justify it because of prejudice?
When we look at Christian or Catholic or Protestant or prizes can we also justify it because of prejudice? A better question, I think, is why should we have to justify it?
So are Jews going to expect people like Newme to simply ignore the fact that Paul Wolfowitz, Alan Greenspan, the Koch brothers, George Soros, Ben Bernanke and many other leading Jewish Financiers who have done very well out of austerity and the crash of 2008, without suspecting that they are part of some sort of club?
I suppose that Jews will expect that since ignorance cannot be eradicated there will be those who not only suspect but believe without question that there is “some sort of club”. Rather than looking for cabals look at the biographies of these men, make note of their intelligence, abilities, and education if you seek some insight into their success.

Paul Wolfowitz is not a financier.

The Koch brothers are not Jewish.

If we are going to talk about exclusive clubs let’s not leave out the erroneous claim that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Christian conservatives are now painting themselves as persecuted and victims of prejudice. Consider the trumped up (or Trumped up) "war on Christmas" and Jeff Session’s religious liberty task force.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: August 5th, 2018, 4:30 am
Greta wrote:There are certain types of Christians with a special competitive hatred of Jews. The pattern follows that of the KKK - a Christian branch famous for its antisemitism - where listings of all the alleged problems caused by Jews, along with selective readings of their texts out of context, and this is used to to justify discrimination.
Yes, that's clearly true, as Newme's staggeringly antisemitic posts above illustrate.

Just to capture some of the worst of it and keep it exposed to the light:
Newme wrote:It is pretty well established that Jewish influence has promoted depopulation measures like abortion genocides, unjustified wars, the homosexuality agenda and others. Do some members mistake the political corruption that is like a big international “Jewish” club, for people who do God’s will and are thus chosen?
Newme wrote:The American Federation of Teachers is run by Jews and the ADL has infiltrated the Public Schools, brainwashing young children with homosexual and race-mixing books.
It took a while for that line of Newme's to fully sink in. "brainwashing young children with homosexual and race-mixing books". I haven't had much contact with Newme on here, but it looks like he/she is competing with Dachshund.

And the quoting from Jewish holy books is, of course, very similar to the technique used against Islam by some other posters.

These kinds of posts do, I think, illustrate why there is such concern about anti-antisemitism in the British Labour party at the moment when, as an outsider looking in and trying to be objective, that concern seems unnecessary and overblown.
Yes, the first thought is to assume neurotic overreaction but, as Australia's Anti Distrimination Board head resigns in troubled circumstances he spoke of the return of "race politics". We thought we'd defeated it, but it was only pushed underground to fester.

I still cannot understand why so many adherents to these Abrahamic religions that proclaimed themselves to be a "religion of love" cannot see that their attitudes are the very antithesis of what their religions were supposed to be about. Instead they seem to have reverted to an OT approach - "onward Christian soldiers", which of course was exactly the attitude of the Pharisees.

It seems that secularist humanism is increasingly replacing religion as the representative of Jesus's purported message because the Abrahamic religions now think of him and his ilk with contempt as they shift their allegiance to extremist preachers and politicians.

This piece hits the nail on the head: ‘Political Incorrectness’ Is Just ‘Political Correctness’ for Conservatives http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... right.html

It is easy to list the problems of any given group. How about the lists detailing why blacks, whites, Muslims, Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Japanese, Russians, Hispanics, Arabians, gays, secularists, Christians etc etc are such terrible people? Seemingly everyone is just dreadful according to someone else.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Fooloso4 wrote: August 5th, 2018, 1:41 pm

Paul Wolfowitz is not a financier.
You mean the HEAD of the WORLD BANK is not a financier??

Are you having a laugh mate?
United States was founded as a Christian nation. Christian conservatives are now painting themselves as persecuted and victims of prejudice
You make my point for me. This sort of tribalism is a luxury that the human race cannot afford.
I dont care if they are jew, muslim or christian, divisions of this kind are the scourge of human kind.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Sy Borg »

There is a rearrangement of the world order.

Allegiances are changing, forming on ideological rather than national grounds. Thus, US conservatives are now much more comfortable with murderous dictators like Putin and Kim than they are with Obama or the Clintons, which is something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

It seems as if fascists and moderates around the world are increasingly seeing their respective common causes beyond national borders.
Fooloso4
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Fooloso4 »

ThomasHobbes:
You mean the HEAD of the WORLD BANK is not a financier??
You are right, he did serve for two years. I knew of him only because he came to my attention through his association with the political philosophers Leo Strauss and Alan Bloom earning a degree in political science while he was at the University of Chicago. I thought it surprising, since most of Strauss’s students eschew political action. I have not followed his career.
You make my point for me.
Based on this:
The above posts by Newme, are on the face of it antisemitic. However, they do contain facts about the degree to which Jews have key jobs in society.
And this:
So are Jews going to expect people like Newme to simply ignore the fact that Paul Wolfowitz, Alan Greenspan, the Koch brothers, George Soros, Ben Bernanke and many other leading Jewish Financiers who have done very well out of austerity and the crash of 2008, without suspecting that they are part of some sort of club?
It was not clear to me what your point was. Do the facts include, as she claimed:
JEWS CONTROL MONEY
JEWS CONTROL MEDIA
JEWS CONTROL CONGRESS
JEWS CONTROL WHITE HOUSE
JEWS CONTROL POLICY
JEWS CONTROL COURTS
JEWS CONTROL HOMELAND SECURITY
JEWS CONTROL MILITARY
JEWS CONTROL CORPORATIONS
JEWS CONTROL EDUCATION
JEWS CONTROL CULTURE
??

What does "people like Newme" mean? Why should the fact that they are Jewish lead people to suspect anything? Hate fueled conspiracy theories have nothing to do with facts.
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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme »

True that the “race-mixing” comment is illogical, unethical etc. I quoted a list and that slipped by me. So nice of you to point it out repeatedly. ;)

Still, disprove the claims that Jews (as in secular/club-like not religious Jews) are overprepresented in government, media etc.

...Or, you can continue to try to shoot the messenger. This is a philosophy forum, so if you continue to choose the latter, more people understand you have nothing more logical to contribute.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme »

Steve3007 wrote: August 5th, 2018, 4:45 am Note: When I said "anti-antisemitism" above I meant "antisemitism".
Anti-anti-anti semitism?
Why not anti-Jewish?
Maybe because most Jews taking over societies are not religious at all?

Btw - my post above was directed to you in response to you trying to join others in putting me down (speaking of me in 3rd person) when I am here, reading this thread. It seems you have nothing better to contribute - so rather than address the main points made, you pulled strawmen, or red herrings. I and other readers are left to wonder if all not refuted is true. If it were refutable, wouldn’t you have done it?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme »

ThomasHobbes wrote: August 5th, 2018, 5:18 am
Steve3007 wrote: August 5th, 2018, 4:30 am

Yes, that's clearly true, as Newme's staggeringly antisemitic posts above illustrate.
But they are only antisemitic to the degree that they are not true.

And they are justified to the degree to which Jews tend to favour Jews over 'goyim'.

The above posts by Newme, are on the face of it antisemitic. However, they do contain facts about the degree to which Jews have key jobs in society.
The mistake of Newme is to see Jews as an amorphous blob hell bent on giving privilege and favour to other Jews, or to Jewish ways of thinking.

Racism works on two basic levels; positive and negative. I submit that they are both bad, and feed one another.
Let me invite you to consider the following question. If there was an institution which gave money to promote "The White People's Prize for Science", or the "White Literary Prize" would you consider that racist?
So why would we not think that the NAACP is also racist? Because Black people do suffer from prejudice? However poor white people resent the help that black people can get that is denied to them. Positive racism leads to negative racism.
When we look at Jewish prizes can we also justify it because of prejudice?

It seems to me that race is an unjustifiable category to understand humans, as when people decide to divide themselves into groups they naturally have to exclude others from that group. They cannot then expect to be treated equally. And if a person of another 'race" objects that they are different, are they going to deny that difference, however arbitrary that difference is?
So are Jews going to expect people like Newme to simply ignore the fact that Paul Wolfowitz, Alan Greenspan, the Koch brothers, George Soros, Ben Bernanke and many other leading Jewish Financiers who have done very well out of austerity and the crash of 2008, without suspecting that they are part of some sort of club?

Having cosy exclusive clubs like the "Jewish Literary Prize", and the "Jewish Prize for Science" are bound to lead to suspicion.

Right now the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), have a definition of antisemitism so tight that it is impossible to criticise Israel on human rights abuse, with being accused of antisemitism.
If you listen on the BBC they do a sleight of hand when attacking Labour as they have removed some of the more ridiculous parts of the definition, The BBC ask why Labour have not adopted the "Internationally accepted" definition.
The IHRA definition is NOT accepted world wide, and not certainly by anyone with an ounce of intelligence.
Has the BBC not thought it through? Or are they playing the undermine JC game?
Why has 'antisemitism' been heard daily for the last 10 months on Radio 4, a relentless **** at fan throwing? Why, when the actual complaints are largely built on an intellectually bankrupt definition of antisemitism?
The answer can only be that there are vested interests which demand that JC can never come to power, and that antisemitism is just another stick to hit him with.

And the more Jews act like a divisive group the more they get criticised and the more racism becomes real. In the same way Tony Robinson is rallying so-called "white", and "English" people in his more to a pogrom in the UK.

All racism is bad positive and negative
I appreciate your grounded perspective.

For the record, I am not prejudice - Jewish ancestry, I’m in an inter-racial, inter-cultural and inter-faith marriage. Before I married, I dated every major race. And I know there are some Jews who see the truth and actually have shared some of what I have discovered about secular/club Jews taking over. They, me and anyone who objects to the unobjectable but undeniable “Jewish” infiltration are labeled anti-semite. So clever! Like anyone who points at reproductive anatomy is shot down as a “homophobic bigot” for not going along with gender delusions as others are. If a group wanted to - - - - with society, they can do it so easily when they are a protected group beyond reproach.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Fooloso4
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Fooloso4 »

Newme,

If you make extraordinary claims then it is up to you to present credible unbiased evidence. I suspect, as was the case with the falsehoods you spread regarding abortion that you cannot distinguish between credible and false claims. Even after repeatedly pointing out to you that it was misinformation and providing medical evidence of the actual stages of the development of a fetus, you continued to post it. Thankfully you finally stopped but never acknowledged that you were either being deceived or deliberately trying to deceive others. Here we are in the same situation.

Do you know you are being deceived? Does it make a difference to you? You once said:
There are different types of mind control. I'm still struggling with some distortions and emotional issues from being raised in a cult that actively engaged in mind control - they controlled so much of your time, money and even thoughts by limiting what was acceptable to read. Anything that was anti-cult was condemned as evil. So when anybody told you that you were in a cult, your first thought was THEY were evil, it never occurred to you that you could actually be in a cult. The mind control was deep and began as babies - so it was very entrenched. (10/11/16)
Has it occurred to you that the mind control might be so deeply entrenched that you are still not free of it?

Have you checked the credibility of any of the websites you link to? Does it matter to you that they are full of lies and deceit?

Are you motivated by hatred or by love of conspiracy theories or both?

You link to Texe Marris. Here is what Wiki says about him:

Texe W. Marrs (born 1944) is an American writer and radio host, who runs two fundamentalist Christian ministries, Power of Prophecy Ministries and Bible Home Church, both based in Austin, Texas. His teaching include end times conspiracy theory with heavy elements of antisemitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Illuminati, and anti-Freemasonry.
About Judaism he has said:
Judaism is the most evil satanic cult that ever existed and Jews are conspiring to overtake the whole world through deceit and cultic worship.
You link to yournewswire which Politifacts, Snopes, Wiki, and others say is fake news (before Trump co-opted the term in order to confuse his followers).

Neither of your links to the Anti-Defamation League works. Did you even try to go to them to see what was said?

Real Jew News is Milton Kapner’s (aka Nathanael Kapner aka Brother Natanael) website.
Steve3007
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 »

Newme wrote:True that the “race-mixing” comment is illogical, unethical etc. I quoted a list and that slipped by me.
You quoted a list and that slipped by you. Doesn't something like that slipping by in a list that you've block-quoted from someone cause you to doubt the integrity of that person who compiled that list and therefore scrutinize the other things they've written just a little bit more closely? When reading the words of people you've found on the internet, how do you assess whether you're going to weigh in on their side? After all, there's a heck of a lot of claims out there to choose from. A lot of people joining the same dots but drawing different pictures. You can't quote them all. And Fooloso4, in the post above, seems to be pointing out an instance in which you've been fooled before. (We've all been fooled before. The trick is acknowledging when it happens and learning from the experience). How do you decide which cherries to pick?

This particular post is not a criticism of you. It is a more general question that I hope you will consider. How do any of us choose which of the numerous available narratives to believe, with their interleaving of specifically chosen facts with non-factual conclusions and value judgments? Do we believe what people say simply because their agenda - their values - appear to fit our own? In your case, that agenda appears to be a strong aversion to homosexuality and abortion, or "the abortion genocide" as you've called it. Fair enough. You're perfectly entitled to your opinions on those issues. But if we do that to too great an extent then we are very vulnerable to confirmation bias - believing something because if it were true it would be a neatly fitting extra piece of a jigsaw puzzle that we're hoping to complete.

Given that it's so easy to mislead people while still, technically, not saying anything that is a blatant falsehood, do you think we sometimes need to check facts by deliberately consulting the viewpoints of people who don't share our own values, to test whether the purported facts are truly independent of those values?
Steve3007
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 »

Newme wrote:Btw - my post above was directed to you in response to you trying to join others in putting me down (speaking of me in 3rd person) when I am here, reading this thread.
I quoted something that you said and criticized it because I disagree with it. If you think of that as "putting you down", but you still want to contribute to a public forum, you're going to have to get used to it, because it will happen a lot from a lot of people. If you object to me speaking of you in the 3rd person, feel free to re-read the post in question and replace all instances of the word "Newme" with the word "you".
It seems you have nothing better to contribute - so rather than address the main points made, you pulled strawmen, or red herrings. I and other readers are left to wonder if all not refuted is true. If it were refutable, wouldn’t you have done it?
Directly quoting you does not constitute a "strawman" or a "red herring". What do you want me to refute? You have re-quoted a list of a dozen or so individuals in various industries who happen to have Jewish backgrounds to varying degrees, sprinkled with unsubstantiatable claims like "The American Federation of Teachers is run by Jews". Explain to me how you get from that particular mixture of selected facts and unsubstantiatable claims to the general proposition "JEWS CONTROL..." everything. Do you also claim that as a fact? If you also claim that as a fact then explain to me what this control means. It appears to me that you are looking for someone to blame for the fact that the society in which you live tolerates homosexuality and abortion. And since there is a very, very longstanding mistrust of Judaism in the Christian world (for reasons that are unconnected to any modern debates about homosexuality or abortion), there is a ready supply of people who call themselves Christians who are ready to join the dots for you and allow you to blame Jews. So they'll do.
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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme »

Fooloso,
It seems you are unaware of gaslighting (aka ad hominem) since you engaged in it (among other illogical attempts to distract from the facts presented). Remember, this is a philosophy forum, where ideally, people not emotionally invested, apply logic, and easily spot logical fallacies.

Gaslighting is a form of mind-control. ;)
gaslighting: a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception.”

Jews represent a tiny part of the population and yet are over represented in many key leadership and influential roles. Only about 30 years ago, Jews could and did only hire other Jews. Now, exclusiveness is more subtle but obviously still happens.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021