How to define antisemitism

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Steve3007
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 » July 26th, 2018, 5:52 am

ThomasHobbes:

OK, so in your last few posts you established that The Sun and The Daily Mail are not supporters of the Labour Party and are particularly not supporters of Corbyn, and they are not shy about displaying their editorial line in various colourful ways.

This is not exactly headline news!

Your "argument" seems to be: "The Sun and The Daily Mail are anti-Corbyn. Therefore all accusations of antisemitism in the Labour leadership from any source, whether inside the Labour party or outside, is part of a right-wing British Establishment Jewish conspiracy."

Have I paraphrased you correctly?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 29th, 2018, 6:18 pm

Labour's definition of anti-semitism, it is claimed omits these 4 things which are included in the so called "International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's" definition.

1) Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country
2) Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour
3) Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations
4) Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis

Let's take point 1. If it is in fact the truth about an individual what would make that bad to say so? And being true surely it would be important to say so.

2) Given that Israel promotes Jewish immigration above others, and offers citizenship of any Jew regardless of nationality - is that not racism?

4) such comparisons may be made, as they may be made to many other countries in particular ways.

3) Whilst this is logically dubious, I'm not sure it necessarily represents racism.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 29th, 2018, 6:19 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 5:52 am
ThomasHobbes:

OK, so in your last few posts you established that The Sun and The Daily Mail are not supporters of the Labour Party and are particularly not supporters of Corbyn, and they are not shy about displaying their editorial line in various colourful ways.

This is not exactly headline news!

Your "argument" seems to be: "The Sun and The Daily Mail are anti-Corbyn. Therefore all accusations of antisemitism in the Labour leadership from any source, whether inside the Labour party or outside, is part of a right-wing British Establishment Jewish conspiracy."

Have I paraphrased you correctly?
No you have not; you are a **** wit.

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Rederic
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Rederic » July 31st, 2018, 10:55 am

These are the views that people are vilifying Jeremy Corbyn for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 » July 31st, 2018, 12:12 pm

Rederic wrote:These are the views that people are vilifying Jeremy Corbyn for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
In that case it was the views of the late Gerald Kaufman that we saw. Rederic, you don't make it clear what point you're making. Are you saying that Corbyn should not be vilified for the views of a completely different Labour MP? Or are you saying that people who hold those views should or should not be vilified for them?

The views being expressed there are very strong condemnations of the actions of the Israeli military towards Palestinians and comparisons between that military and the Nazis. On the face of it, I wouldn't see those views as anti-Semitic, even if I don't agree with them. And The fact that Kaufman was Jewish and a former supporter of Zionism inevitably tends to lend weight to that idea, although it isn't necessarily true that one can't hold a prejudice against a group of which one is a member.


Whereas I think a remark like the one below, which panders to old "Jews are running the world" conspiracy theories that have a long history is most definitely anti-Semitic because it is not a criticism of an action but a vilification of a group and a condemnation by association.
Mass hysteria in this case is a set of lies offered to us by a media which is comprised of right wingers. Many of them Jewish, or in business with Jews.

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Rederic
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Rederic » July 31st, 2018, 2:24 pm

In that case it was the views of the late Gerald Kaufman that we saw. Rederic, you don't make it clear what point you're making. Are you saying that Corbyn should not be vilified for the views of a completely different Labour MP? Or are you saying that people who hold those views should or should not be vilified for them?

I'm saying that Jeremy Corbyn holds the same views as those uttered by Gerald Kaufman in that clip.

I have shown it as evidence of the views he is being vilified for. If you look at the headlines or read the articles in the right wing media, you get very little detail.

I post this so people can make there own minds up about the merits or otherwise of the accusations of antisemitism thrown at Corbyn.
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 » July 31st, 2018, 2:50 pm

Rederic wrote:I'm saying that Jeremy Corbyn holds the same views as those uttered by Gerald Kaufman in that clip.

I have shown it as evidence of the views he is being vilified for. If you look at the headlines or read the articles in the right wing media, you get very little detail.

I post this so people can make there own minds up about the merits or otherwise of the accusations of antisemitism thrown at Corbyn.
OK. Thanks for the clarification. I personally don't think that speech by Gerald Kaufman was antisemitic and I therefore support the Labour Party NEC in not adopting all of the supposed examples of antisemitism. But I also don't think it's just the right wing media that has created this. It's not as easy as that. The many members of the Labour Party itself who are upset about this are not The Right Wing Media.

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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme » August 4th, 2018, 3:26 pm

Can of worms - elephant in societies... however you want to call this topic.

“Creation of Israel, 1948. On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.” This was against the will of many people living there. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/97177.htm The Israel in the middle east is not the same Israel of the Old Testament - but religious people have been lead to believe it is due to Scofield bible interpretations which deified Israel. Yet Israel was created by people who felt they could decide to take over and establish a country, despite others having lived there for centuries.

The overwhelming influence Jews have in the corruption of our country and media, and how many lds members blindly support a group largely out of tradition and peer pressure (to avoid being labeled “anti-semite”) is concerning. It is as if Jews are immune to criticism. And consider that most American Jews are only Jewish in heredity (or marrying into it), not religious practice. School text books obsess over the holocaust and ignore the many more who were killed in the Soviet Union and Maoist China. Only a few decades ago, it was legal for Jews to discriminate against anyone not Jewish and they did discriminate plenty. It is pretty well established that Jewish influence has promoted depopulation measures like abortion genocides, unjustified wars, the homosexuality agenda and others. Do some members mistake the political corruption that is like a big international “Jewish” club, for people who do God’s will and are thus chosen?

If you want to support a group, understand what you are supporting. Quotes from the Jewish Talmud: (Note that ‘goy’ is anyone not Jewish - likely, you.)

“If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
* “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)
* “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
* “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)
* “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)

“The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)
* “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)
* “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

* “Sexual intercourse between the ‘goyim’ is like intercourse between animals.” (Sanhedrin 74b)
* “When it comes to a Gentile in peace times, one may harm him indirectly, for instance, by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice.” (Shulkan Arukh, Yoreh De ‘ah, 158, Hebrew Edition only)

“‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)
[’Yashu’ is an acronym for the Jewish curse, ‘May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.’]
* Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)
* “Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)
* “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)

=

"Lord Jacob Rothschild had admitted that his family were ‘crucial’ in the creation of Israel, in a Times of Israel interview.

The 80-year-old Rothschild said in a recent interview that his ancestors “helped pave the way for the creation of Israel,” forcing the British government to sign the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

The Rothschilds are commonly believed to have engineered WWI and waited until 1917 when Britain showed signs of trouble. The Zionist family then promised the British Government that they could convince the US to enter the war and ensure Britain’s victory over Germany on the basis that the British government handed control of Palestine to the Zionists.

Thus the Balfour Declaration was created, which is an official letter from the British Government Foreign Secretary James Balfour to Baron Rothschild." http://yournewswire.com/lord-rothschild-israel/

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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme » August 4th, 2018, 3:30 pm

From the Anti-Defamation League (Jewish organization based in the US):

On normalizing homosexuality to kids in public school:
https://www.adl.org/blog/the-time-is-no ... -classroom

And on killing the 2nd Amendment:
https://www.adl.org/blog/student-walkou ... g-now-what

Note that Jews represent only 3% of America, yet clearly disproportionately show dominance in many areas of America...

JEWS CONTROL MONEY
• The Rothschilds, Goldman Sachs, and Warburgs of Hamburg are primary holders of the Federal Reserve Bank.

JEWS CONTROL MEDIA
• CBS is owned by Murray Rothstein (aka Sumner Redstone).
• NBC is owned by Brian Roberts.
• ABC is owned by Sydney Bass with Robert Iger as CEO.
• CNN is primarily owned by Aviv Nevo.

JEWS CONTROL CONGRESS
• Jewish Lobbies AIPAC, ADL, National Jewish Democratic Council, Republican Jewish Coalition with their BILLIONS hang ALL the hacks on Capitol Hill on a Jewstring.

JEWS CONTROL WHITE HOUSE
• Jacob Lew — Treasury Secretary; Penny Pritzker — Commerce Secretary; Kenneth Feinberg — Pay Czar; Valerie Jarrett — Senior Advisor; David Axelrod — Special Advisor.

JEWS CONTROL POLICY
• Carl Levin is head of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Diane Feinstein chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee.
• The US State Department finds Jews in the highest positions of authority.
• American Enterprise Institute and the Foreign Policy Initiative, both Jewish neocon ‘think tanks,’ dictate warmongering agendas to the Jewish-bought Congress.

JEWS CONTROL COURTS
• Three Jews sit on the Supreme Court Bench: Elena Kagan, Stephen Breyer, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

JEWS CONTROL HOMELAND SECURITY
• The Chertoff Group, Anti-Defamation League, Israeli Intelligence, run DHS.

JEWS CONTROL MILITARY
• Military brass depend on the Jewish-owned Fed for their paychecks.
• Military brass depend on Armaments Manufacturers, whose stocks are underwritten by Jewish Investment Banks, for perks and post-military careers.
• Bowing to the Jews in Israel last month, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel took the mark-of-the-beast when placing the Jewish Yarmulke on his head.

JEWS CONTROL CORPORATIONS
• Jewish Investment Banks like Goldman Sachs and Citigroup underwrite the stocks of American corporations and thus dictate the offshoring of US jobs to China and India for cheap labor and BIG profits.

JEWS CONTROL EDUCATION
• The American Federation of Teachers is run by Jews and the ADL has infiltrated the Public Schools, brainwashing young children with homosexual and race-mixing books.
• Jews donate huge grants to the Ivy League Schools and place Jewish personnel in high positions such as David Skorton, President of Cornell and Allan Garber, Provost of Harvard.
• Jewish Wall Street mogul, Sanford Weil, Chairman Emeritus of Citigroup, is a major benefactor of Cornell University and also funds 500 Academies via his National Academy Foundation.

JEWS CONTROL CULTURE
• Rachel Tiven is head of Immigration Equality.
• Susanne Salkind and Michael Schwartz are Associate Directors for the LGBT Lobby Group, Human Rights Campaign.
• Keshet is a National LGBT Jewish Lobby.
• Joe Biden recently “praised” Jewish leaders for growing the Homosexual agenda due to their control of Hollywood and the Media.
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=821 (Written 2013, so some changes may have been made since then.)

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Newme
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Newme » August 4th, 2018, 3:32 pm

Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor and Trilateral Commision insider, advised his Illuminati superiors that the New World Order can be established only be employing religion as a key weapon of global influence.

C. I. Scofield, the corrupt lawyer whose "Scofield Bible" became an international "Christian classic," was paid handsomely by wealthy New York Jews for his service to the Illuminati. Thanks to the Scofield Bible, generations of Christians have been trained up and indoctrinated as unholy Judaizers and Zionists.” http://www.texemarrs.com/012005/illumin ... infamy.htm

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 4th, 2018, 5:37 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 2:50 pm
But I also don't think it's just the right wing media that has created this. It's not as easy as that.
Isn't it?

So what is your evidence of a 'problem' of antisemitism in Labour?

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Greta
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Greta » August 4th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Antisemitism: hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

There are certain types of Christians with a special competitive hatred of Jews. The pattern follows that of the KKK - a Christian branch famous for its antisemitism - where listings of all the alleged problems caused by Jews, along with selective readings of their texts out of context, and this is used to to justify discrimination.

Such grievance lists are akin to claiming that Christians are likely to stone adulterers to death when the reality is that they now just vote them into high office.

From Wiki:
Christian rhetoric and antipathy towards Jews developed in the early years of Christianity and was reinforced by the belief that Jews had killed Christ and ever increasing anti-Jewish measures over the ensuing centuries. The action taken by Christians against Jews included acts of ostracism, humiliation and violence, and murder culminating in the Holocaust.[1]:21[2]:169[3]

Christian antisemitism has been attributed to numerous factors including theological differences, competition between Church and Synagogue, the Christian drive for converts,[4] decreed by the Great Commission, misunderstanding of Jewish beliefs and practices, and a perceived Jewish hostility toward Christians. These attitudes were reinforced in Christian preaching, art and popular teaching for two millennia, containing contempt for Jews,[5] as well as statutes which were designed to humiliate and stigmatise Jews.

Modern antisemitism has been described as primarily hatred against Jews as a race with its modern expression rooted in 18th-century racial theories, while anti-Judaism is described as hostility to Jewish religion, but in Western Christianity it effectively merged into antisemitism during the 12th century.[1]:16 Scholars have debated how Christian antisemitism played a role in the Nazi Third Reich, World War II and the Holocaust. The Holocaust has driven many within Christianity to reflect on the relationship between Christian theology, practices, and that genocide.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 4th, 2018, 6:02 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 2:50 pm

OK. Thanks for the clarification.
The BBC are masters of this technique.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2016102 ... n-of-truth
When people hear a lie, as long as it is vague enough tend to go along with it is it supports aspects of their own beliefs.
You do not have to accept that there is a evil concerted conspiracy on this issue, just enough people with an interest in trying to avoid a change in the social system that want to keep the changed Labour party out of office.
But when the people who hold the wealth and power might have to give up a little to alleviate poverty and inequality, its easy enough for them to scare others to that view.
In the last 2 and a half years you can plot the progress of key phrases from the media and across the Tory party from the moment JC did what was thought impossible and win the party nomination , then two leadership contests despite legal challenges, and back stabbing by the old Labour establishment.
Key to this charge was Michael Foster, a rich Jew who has always favoured Israel and disliked JC for his highlighting Israel's human rights abuses. Now it is Margaret Hodge, another wealthy privileged Jew who called JC a racist in public.

If you have time you might also want to look into this news report by Al Jazeera
https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

It's enough to turn anyone into an antisemite!
The Israeli lobby in hoping to destablize Labour could so easily achieve antisemitism by acting like arseholes.

On the other hand there are some great Jews in Labour who have formed the JVL in an attempt to counter the pro-Israeli JLM.
Labour is inclusive. Jewish Voice for Labour, Jewish Labour Movement, and ALSO JFJ (Jews for Justice) - who have formed to re-instate Jews that have been thrown out of the party for being 'antisemitic". Yes you read that right. During the NEC leaderhship of Iain McNichol several Jews and others were summarily suspended for claims of antisemitism and other unspecified reason. This 'purge' which barred 100s of new members was the right's reaction to a new influx of around 200,000 members in support of JC.

It's hard to imagine the **** storm that doubling of the membership has caused - unless you are a member of the party. But the tricks are as dirty as hell.

Steve3007
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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 » August 5th, 2018, 4:30 am

Greta wrote:There are certain types of Christians with a special competitive hatred of Jews. The pattern follows that of the KKK - a Christian branch famous for its antisemitism - where listings of all the alleged problems caused by Jews, along with selective readings of their texts out of context, and this is used to to justify discrimination.
Yes, that's clearly true, as Newme's staggeringly antisemitic posts above illustrate.

Just to capture some of the worst of it and keep it exposed to the light:
Newme wrote:It is pretty well established that Jewish influence has promoted depopulation measures like abortion genocides, unjustified wars, the homosexuality agenda and others. Do some members mistake the political corruption that is like a big international “Jewish” club, for people who do God’s will and are thus chosen?
Newme wrote:The American Federation of Teachers is run by Jews and the ADL has infiltrated the Public Schools, brainwashing young children with homosexual and race-mixing books.
It took a while for that line of Newme's to fully sink in. "brainwashing young children with homosexual and race-mixing books". I haven't had much contact with Newme on here, but it looks like he/she is competing with Dachshund.

And the quoting from Jewish holy books is, of course, very similar to the technique used against Islam by some other posters.

These kinds of posts do, I think, illustrate why there is such concern about anti-antisemitism in the British Labour party at the moment when, as an outsider looking in and trying to be objective, that concern seems unnecessary and overblown. On the face of it, if I ignore the old and powerful roots that antisemitism seems to have, and just look at the current situation, the Labour Party NEC's position on the specific examples of antisemitism in the IHRA seems (to me at least) entirely reasonable. Comparing the acts of the Israeli government to those of the Nazis or calling them racist for treating Palestinians as second class citizens in their own land is something that we may or may not agree with, but it's not (on the face of it) antisemitic because it's a criticism of actions by specific people, rather than the demonization of a group simply by referencing the label attached to them or by association. But when we look at the long history of antisemitism, and Newme's recent illustration of its continuing presence, it seems clearer to me why some people inside the Labour Party would be so concerned that these kinds of criticisms can feed a generally anti-Jewish narrative which quickly stops being an analysis of real people's acts and becomes a general appeal to our old and powerful stranger-hating-and-fearing tribalism.

I remember seeing a little illustration of the length of that history when I lived in York, in northern England, and learned about a particular instance in the 12th Century:

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visi ... -massacre/

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Re: How to define antisemitism

Post by Steve3007 » August 5th, 2018, 4:45 am

Note: When I said "anti-antisemitism" above I meant "antisemitism".

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