Brett Kavanaugh

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Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 9th, 2018, 4:40 am

Eduk wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 3:23 am
There are a lot of spurious slippery slope arguments but I think lying to get political power might be a genuine slippery slope?
I guess it depends on whether you think the voting public are incapable of rational conscious thought and are therefore not free agents. If this is the case then lying to them to get them to do the right thing would be similar to lying to a child to get the child to do the right thing.
Of course with children we replace the lies as the child grows up.
It's our brain whot does it. The brain adapts and patterns are set down.
Evidence appears to confirm the slippery slope of dishonesty.
Once we start lying, then we get used to it and the brain tells us it's no big deal. Even if we start out with good intentions...and end up in hell.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... dishonesty

However, some people are more likely to lie than others. We have grown used to the idea that politicians lie.
I think Trump is likely to be a Big Winner in the Guinness Book for record-breaking lies.
Some have been keeping count...but will he ever be held to account ?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... -lies.html

Eduk
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 9th, 2018, 4:52 am

I can't recall a time where I believed that politicians were giving honest opinion. Sadly if they did they wouldn't be voted for. Some people have accused trump of honestly speaking his mind, which is a sick joke.
Ultimately we are all held to account, Trump included. We get to enjoy lower living standards for voting for the likes of trump (I am from the UK) and trump gets to be trump. Certainly I wouldn't wish to switch places.
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 9th, 2018, 5:23 am

Eduk wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 4:52 am
I can't recall a time where I believed that politicians were giving honest opinion. Sadly if they did they wouldn't be voted for. Some people have accused trump of honestly speaking his mind, which is a sick joke.
Ultimately we are all held to account, Trump included. We get to enjoy lower living standards for voting for the likes of trump (I am from the UK) and trump gets to be trump. Certainly I wouldn't wish to switch places.
I don't think 'ultimately' cuts it. There is too much time and space given to people like Kavanaugh and Trump who are allowed to make, break or change rules to their advantage. I'm just waiting for Trump to announce he is giving himself a long, long tenure because otherwise the Evil Ones will bigly bring down America.

I found this to be of interest:

Voters are trading honesty for loyalty

'' NYU psychologist Jonathan Haidt has argued that while everyone values fairness and honesty, conservatives care about loyalty more than liberals do. Hildreth said that everyone values loyalty to an extent, however. Surely most people across the political spectrum would be willing to lie to save someone, or themselves, from death or harm.

Though Hildreth and his colleagues used an interesting word choice in the title of their most recent paper, “When Loyalty Trumps Honesty,” he insisted the work is not a statement about U.S. politics. But any work on human nature might help shed light on what’s happening, and it’s easy to see how President Donald Trump has created the sense that his supporters are in pitched battle against elitists and “enemies of the people.” A sense of competition and loyalty could lead supporters to overlook his lies.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... ue-loyalty

So back to Kavanaugh. The loyalty thing between bands of bros, yeah ? Just like the Bullingdon Club...and pigs.

Eduk
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 9th, 2018, 5:35 am

I don't think 'ultimately' cuts it.
Good point. What do you propose?
I'm just waiting for Trump to announce he is giving himself a long, long tenure because otherwise the Evil Ones will bigly bring down America.
Certainly possible. I suspect that would be a step too far even for Trump. But who knows.
and it’s easy to see how President Donald Trump has created the sense that his supporters are in pitched battle against elitists and “enemies of the people.”
For my money this narrative is not a significant factor. Or at least one of many many factors. I see it as more of a holistic problem. Bad decisions tend to beget bad decisions - which is another slippery slope argument.
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 9th, 2018, 6:34 am

What do I propose?
Now there's a question !
Earlier I linked to an article with various proposals. Did you read it ?
I think that the problems have to be clearly identified. So what are they?

''...Let’s remember that in less than two decades, America has experienced the Iraq war, the financial crisis, intensifying economic stratification, an opioid plague, persistent gender and racial inequality and now seemingly unending climate change-intensified disasters.

While the victims have been ravaged by these crime sprees, crises and calamities, the perpetrators have largely avoided arrest, inquisition, incarceration, resignation, public shaming and ruined careers.

That is because the United States has been turned into a safe space for a permanent ruling class. Inside the rarefied refuge, the key players who created this era’s catastrophes and who embody the most pernicious pathologies have not just eschewed punishment – many of them have actually maintained or even increased their social, financial and political status.''

There has to be consequences.

'' After all, if there are no social or professional consequences for those who lied a country into a trillion-dollar war that amassed hundreds of thousands of casualties – if that war’s architects can remain in good standing and in high-prestige jobs – what will deter any politician or pundit from supporting a similar military conflict when it is politically opportune?

If there are no legal consequences for profiteers who defrauded the global economy into a collapse, what will deter those profiteers from doing that again?

If there are no financial consequences for fossil fuel moguls who knowingly created an ecological crisis, what will deter them from continuing to try to profit off that crisis as the planet burns?

And if a petulant zealot like Kavanaugh can be credibly accused of sexual harassment, repeatedly distort the facts during his confirmation, temper-tantrum his way through congressional hearings and still get catapulted on to the nation’s highest court – what will deter any other power-hungry child of privilege from behaving in exactly the same way?''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... vid-sirota


I think that politicians should he held accountable right at the point they open their mouths and spew out the lies.
Facts and Truth to balance the Hate and Bile. How is to be done ? Well, Twitter seems to be the Way...
Fight fire with fire.
Burning probes.

Eduk
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 9th, 2018, 6:46 am

I haven't read through all your linked articles so apologies if I missed the one with proposals? But when I say proposal I mean something actionable. As in if we say we should hold our politicians to account then everyone Republican and Democrat would agree. Of course the key part is how do we hold our politicians accountable? We already have courts of law for example.
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Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 9th, 2018, 7:25 am

Eduk wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 6:46 am
I haven't read through all your linked articles so apologies if I missed the one with proposals? But when I say proposal I mean something actionable. As in if we say we should hold our politicians to account then everyone Republican and Democrat would agree. Of course the key part is how do we hold our politicians accountable? We already have courts of law for example.
No worries - I probably post too many links - sometimes they just act as useful reference points for me. I don't always read the complete article.
Accountability by law. Good idea. We should take them to court...oh wait...
OK - let's replace all old white conservative types with a more diverse crew. Again, the question is How or Who ?
Young celebrities singing from a different hymn sheet ?

Imagine if Kavanaugh's behaviour had been investigated by people not of the 'aristocracy' ?
Would we have a more just result. Hmmmmm...

By Georgeanna, I've got it ! Revolution. Off with his head.

Your thoughts ?

Eduk
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 9th, 2018, 8:25 am

We have the government we deserve. If we wanted, as a race, good truthful governance then we would have it, but we demonstrably don't want those things.
I wouldn't focus on changing one person at a time, after all if I did change Trump we would just get Trump 2. What needs to happen is for everyone to change so no one would vote for Trump to begin with. This means there cannot be a Trump 2. So I would personally push my agenda locally where I could, that's what I would do. Might not sound like much, but frankly there isn't much I can do.
I can't really think of improvements to evolution, it's a pretty good system.
Unknown means unknown.

Georgeanna
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Georgeanna » October 9th, 2018, 9:35 am

Eduk wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 8:25 am
We have the government we deserve. If we wanted, as a race, good truthful governance then we would have it, but we demonstrably don't want those things.
I wouldn't focus on changing one person at a time, after all if I did change Trump we would just get Trump 2. What needs to happen is for everyone to change so no one would vote for Trump to begin with. This means there cannot be a Trump 2. So I would personally push my agenda locally where I could, that's what I would do. Might not sound like much, but frankly there isn't much I can do.
I can't really think of improvements to evolution, it's a pretty good system.
Is it true that 'We have the government we deserve' ?
All of your post is worthy of a slice and dice.
Perhaps another thread ?

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 10th, 2018, 5:08 am

Eduk wrote:I can't recall a time where I believed that politicians were giving honest opinion.
I personally prefer not to put all politicians into a single category, or fall into the trap of thinking that they are, in some sense, a different species from "normal" people. Some people are more honest than others. Some politicians are more honest than others. I think the main constraints on the honesty of politicians are the need to toe a party line and the need to be aware of the way their words will be interpreted. If we were them, we'd feel those constraints too.

For example, one of the questions often asked of Tory politicians by interviewers recently is whether they would be prepared to serve in a government led by Boris Johnson. Obviously the simple, honest answer is "yes". They would serve under whoever is currently party leader. But none of them feel able to say that explicitly because they know that their words would be interpreted, in the news headline, as "I endorse Boris Johnson as leader and thereby wish to undermine Theresa May". They know that and the journalist knows that. The journalist needs to look for a scoop. They both know the game that they're playing. As long as we all know that too, then I don't think their refusal to give a simple "yes" answer should be interpreted as dishonesty. Everyone has to make allowances for the political water in which they are obliged to swim. If we were them, we'd have to do the same. It's realpolitik.
Some people have accused trump of honestly speaking his mind, which is a sick joke.
I think I can understand the sense in which people regard Trump as honest. He is honest in the sense that he talks without filters and without feeling the need to toe a party line. Obviously he lies constantly. But his lies are transparent. Everyone understands why he says them, so, strangely, he can be regarded by his supporters as honest. It's a bit like when your 6 year old child lies about stealing a cookie. You can see through him. You can see why he feels the need to lie. You can see the cogs whirring. Trump has, previously, essentially been pretty straight about the need, as he sees it, to tell lies in such things as The Art of the Deal.
Georgeanna wrote:I found this to be of interest:

Voters are trading honesty for loyalty

'' NYU psychologist Jonathan Haidt has argued that while everyone values fairness and honesty, conservatives care about loyalty more than liberals do. Hildreth said that everyone values loyalty to an extent, however. Surely most people across the political spectrum would be willing to lie to save someone, or themselves, from death or harm.

Though Hildreth and his colleagues used an interesting word choice in the title of their most recent paper, “When Loyalty Trumps Honesty,” he insisted the work is not a statement about U.S. politics. But any work on human nature might help shed light on what’s happening, and it’s easy to see how President Donald Trump has created the sense that his supporters are in pitched battle against elitists and “enemies of the people.” A sense of competition and loyalty could lead supporters to overlook his lies.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... ue-loyalty
Yes, I think that is interesting. I can see why some people prize personal loyalty above all else. It's similar to the reason why mafiosa think it's important to know the family history of their associates. In a world where everybody routinely lies and the concept of objective truth is not considered a particularly useful one, loyalty is a rare constant. If someone is loyal to you personally then the lies don't matter. You know they'll always have your back.

Eduk
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Eduk » October 10th, 2018, 5:55 am

I think the main constraints on the honesty of politicians are the need to toe a party line and the need to be aware of the way their words will be interpreted. If we were them, we'd feel those constraints too.
I couldn't be a party politician because I feel that level of Machiavellian action to be ultimately self defeating. As evidence I present the world as it is.
And if I was an independent I wouldn't get voted into power because everything I said would deeply anger someone until no one was left unangered.
I personally prefer not to put all politicians into a single category, or fall into the trap of thinking that they are, in some sense, a different species from "normal" people.
I don't use normal as a compliment.
Unknown means unknown.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 10th, 2018, 6:59 am

Eduk wrote:I couldn't be a party politician because I feel that level of Machiavellian action to be ultimately self defeating. As evidence I present the world as it is.
And if I was an independent I wouldn't get voted into power because everything I said would deeply anger someone until no one was left unangered.
That's the trouble with power in a representative democracy. The reality appears to be that in order to have a chance of winning an election, and becoming an MP (or other countries' equivalent) you have to throw in your lot with a famous-brand-name party. And that means, to at least some extent, toeing the party line. It means compromising for the sake of unity and a clear, consistent message. If you don't want to do that then you either have to give up on the idea of political power or take the route of people like Trump - infecting a larger more politically electable host.

Steve3007
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Steve3007 » October 10th, 2018, 7:09 am

I don't think the action necessarily has to be seen as Machiavellian. I don't think we always have to be that pessimistic. I think we can recognise that it's simply about compromise in order to get along with other people who are like-minded but not identically minded. If, for the sake of argument, I decided I had political ambitions, looked at the parties who seem to have some non-zero chance of gaining political power, and decided that the Labour Party most closely matched my own views, then I could stand as a Labour Party candidate even if I didn't wholly and completely agree with everything in that party's manifesto.

Dark Matter
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Dark Matter » October 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm

The philosophy of politics should incorporate a review of facts with reason, something that is completely lacking when it comes to leftists opposing Brett Kavanaugh.

Fact: No one questions Kavanaugh's credentials. No one.

Fact: His accuser requested anonymity, a trust that was betrayed in a last-ditch attempt to delay his confirmation until after the midterm elections.

Fact: Democrats and their allies have a history smear campaigns to thwart nominations they don't like. (Consider where the term "Borking" someone came from.)

Fact: Everyone Ford identified has provided a statement, under penalty of a felony, that they have no memory of the gathering. One even wrote a letter saying she felt pressured to change her story.

Fact: Contrary to her testimony, Ford is leftist political activist: Palo Alto University where she works is a SJW factory, she gained financially to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars and is regarded as a "hero" by her circle of friends.

Fact: Ford came forward only after carefully deleting her social media profile; and after carefully selecting left-wing attorney Debra Katz to represent her political interests; and after carefully scripting some dubious and sketchy supportive material including a lie-detector test (she could easily fool, giving her background) and vague notes from a 2012 couples-therapy session.

Fact: A person can be absolutely, 100% certain their memory serves them well and be absolutely, 100% wrong.

More can be said, but it is clear that people here don't give a damn. They'd rather see the Constitution destroyed and a man's life ruined than due justice.

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Greta
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Re: Brett Kavanaugh

Post by Greta » October 10th, 2018, 7:12 pm

Gee, the Democrats sound so terrible - smearing, lying, betrothing trusts. Pure evil.

Thank goodness for the Republicans. They would never, ever smear, lie or betray trusts.

Obviously Kavanagh did as was accused. However, the powers-that-be have managed to cover up for his embarrassing past. That's politics. If there is a proper investigation in the future under the Dems in the future (if this administration allows them to govern again) then he may be impeached.

I don't think that will happen. My guess is that there will be a Trump equivalent to the Reichstag fire before either this or the next general election, perhaps starting a war to get a future election suspended so the nation can pull together behind the President in the war effort.

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