Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Eduk wrote: October 15th, 2018, 10:56 am
Where did I blame white men for all the evils of this world ?
Talk about 'slippery slopes' !
You said the world is going to hell because of angry men. I'm sorry for exaggerating your claim. Not a slippery slope though.
How does fascism mean abdicating responsibility
I explained already. You declare Mussolini (or other dictator) to be an infallible God who only works in your best interests and then you don't need to think anymore.
Oh and religion is the biggie, you better believe it !
I better believe it? That's not a great argument. Show me a belief unique to religion?
OK, then. I'm going out now to cull a few men who are walking their dogs. Pet owners be damned.
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk »

I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a unique religious belief?
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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Eduk wrote: October 15th, 2018, 11:16 am I don't get it. Is that supposed to be a unique religious belief?
It's my dogma.
Eduk
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk »

But that just supports my theory as this clearly isn't your religious belief. How about a serious attempt?
I seriously don't believe religious beliefs to be unique or special. They are just unreasonable beliefs same as any other unreasonable beliefs. If you could somehow magically remove religion you wouldn't change the world at all. What you actually need to do is remove unreasonable beliefs (which is tough obviously - I recommend education).
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Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost »

Georgeanna -
Where did you get the idea re left = feminine attibutes and right = masculine ? And how difficult is it not to use easy labels like 'left' and 'right' ?
It is deplorable how such labels are bandied about as derogatory descriptions...left = bad; right =good.
The right have the best label don't they. They are right. If you're not right you're wrong.
Jungian archetypes. The feminine is more inclined toward socialism (inclusion and equality), and the masculine more inclined toward structure and conservativism. Needless to say the far, far left turns into anarchy and the far far right into tyranny.

To say “right wing” views means “correct” is utterly stupid. Anyone pulling to either pole of the political spectrum causes disruption. It is actually the “far right” that is classed common circles as being “fascist” with the “far left” being the polar opposite. Personally I don’t see how this is correct in any way shape or form.

From etymology online :
A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
Whilst anarchy is more about the complete annihilation of all governmental structures, yet I completely buy into one aspect of “anarchy” which sides with opposing authority.

This said is it naive to assume that the onset of anarchy, the disolution of government and structure, will not lead to fascism - the difference being that instead of ethnicity other factors are used to drive public opinion such as “class” and so-called “equality” in the guise of redistributing influence and power.

The “far right” tends to tilt primarily toward the ethnic divide and victimhood, and the “far left” tends toward any social divide it can use to make people think they are “victims” of authoritarian oppression - be it due to sex, wealth, colour, creed, religion or any other conveniently available label of group identity.

For this reason it is dangerous imo to assume “fascism” is purely a “far right wing” attitude when the “far left” also take up all of the above (bar the reverse play on the ethnicity front) in order to create a movement based purely on an ideology of victimhood and enforce the idea of some “oppressive” force holding those at the bottom down.

Hopefully this is useful and helps you see that the “feminine” open door all inclusive policy is ideally in balance with the “masculine” conservative attitude of keeping the current working structure intact. If one pushes too far one way then the opposite force steps in to correct it (ideally!) Whatever happens these forces rise due to people either being, or merely persuaded to feel like they are being, estranged, oppressed, left out and/or ignored by the greater part of society.

Given the currenr standing global communications I believe, VERY strongly, that due to the information explosion and mass global communication - on a scale never to have existed prior to the age of the internet (and it’s still in its infancy!) - we seeing a state of flux, a state across the globe where people are beginning to see cultural differences, divides between rich and poor, and a driving political need to use these lines of communication to gain public appeal. Some good and bad has come from this. Corruption has been exposed and good will too, it is more about society - globally - deals with information on such a scale. Some massively opposing cultures are now on each others information doorstep almost overnight.

Ironically it seems to me that those on the far left are desperate to take advantage of the turmoil and those on the right are desperate to take advantage of the turmoil too. Neither is control they both merely recognize (consciously or otherwise) that global politics has seriously shifted and people are more exposed to the goings on in the world than ever before.

On a grand scale the progress humanity has made over the past century has been dramatic to say the least.

Anyway, to Plato and Aristotle ... there are examples of each being associated with each “camp”. Aristotle I would be more likely to associate with rhe right and Plato with the left; but really, that is a huge generalization because the best thinkers in the world are more often than not an admixture lf the two - meaning they may espouse some views leaning more this way than that, but on balance they are “balanced.”

Some people blame Plato for Marxism, which I personally find completely hysterical.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost »

Also Georgeanna -
In any case, the point is that it has been predominantly white males that have been in control for centuries. Well, in my part of the world...
Why ?
Probably for reasons why they are not in control in the part of the world I live in? I am baffled by the whole “white” category given that there is actually no such meaningful genetic category. It is like blaming people for political oppression simply because they live brick houses. It’s arbitrary nonsense.

The “race” card, or any ethnic claim is a false flag. There are no significant genetic differences between human populations. The genetics difference (the insignificant ones mentioned) are more varied WITHIN populations than BETWEEN them. So when you say “white” should at least make some attempt to say which ethnic group you mean because “white” isn’t an ethnic group at all, it is nothing more than a political label that casts its net over several ethnically distinct populations (some of which are as good as identical to some ethnic populations in Africa - where the greatest degree of genetic diversity lies due to bottlenecking from the migration out of Africa.)

The idea of “racial differences” is gibberish on a biological level. Empires have risen and fallen around the globe over vast swathes of time, from Timbuktu to the deserts of Mongolia, from the Roman Empire to the British Empire. Skin tone is not a factor when it comes to “Fascism” other than the term happens to have come from a people’s language that is an admixture bearly distinct from other European populations:

https://brilliantmaps.com/the-genetic-map-of-europe/

Anyway, what do you think about me saying “fascism” isn’t necessarily a “far right” attitude and that “far left” views are somewhat comparable?
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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Eduk wrote: October 15th, 2018, 11:27 am But that just supports my theory as this clearly isn't your religious belief. How about a serious attempt?
I seriously don't believe religious beliefs to be unique or special. They are just unreasonable beliefs same as any other unreasonable beliefs. If you could somehow magically remove religion you wouldn't change the world at all. What you actually need to do is remove unreasonable beliefs (which is tough obviously - I recommend education).
How about you backtrack a little.
I said that the role of religion played/plays a dominant part in [societal] control. I didn't mention unique beliefs or that they were special.

I think it is clearly a 'biggie' in exerting influence in mainstream politics e.g. America. It matters in the way it is used.
A prime example can be seen in the current political rallies manipulating the fears and inciting hatred against the opposition, the Evil Ones.

I doubt that religion can be removed - it seems to be part of our cultural need. As usual, it is all about humans being humans.

I agree about the importance of education. Others not so much. It depends...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYx ... kU-U#t=227
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

burning ghost -
Re: Anyway, what do you think about me saying “fascism” isn’t necessarily a “far right” attitude and that “far left” views are somewhat comparable?

From what I read and pointed out earlier, it seems that you are right.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost »

Georgeanna wrote: October 15th, 2018, 12:50 pm burning ghost -
Re: Anyway, what do you think about me saying “fascism” isn’t necessarily a “far right” attitude and that “far left” views are somewhat comparable?

From what I read and pointed out earlier, it seems that you are right.
And you and I are likely to meet with strong opposition for saying so and be accused of “comflating” terms. Maybe not here though. Guess we’ll find out soon enough ;)
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Eduk
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk »

Georgeanna what I'm saying is that religion is not a need. As evidence I present myself.
I just don't see religion as fundamental and as evidence I asked if there was anything unique to religion.
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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Eduk wrote: October 15th, 2018, 1:12 pm Georgeanna what I'm saying is that religion is not a need. As evidence I present myself.
I just don't see religion as fundamental and as evidence I asked if there was anything unique to religion.
Thanks for clarification. This is not about your personal need or otherwise for religion.

I'd like to ask what your thoughts on 'fascism', as described earlier.

'' The thinker and historian Ernst Nolte argued that fascism was the great “anti” philosophy that united people frightened by social and economic change: anti-Semitic, anti-socialist, anti-feminist, anti-democracy.

These were its unifying principles:

Hatred of democracy. Power should be held by those strong and clever enough to seize it, preferably a dictator.
The necessity of violence. Force is a legitimate way to achieve power and war is good because it binds us together.
Biology as destiny. Men are born to work, women to have lots of babies. Europeans are inherently superior thanks to a mix of breeding and education.
National identity. People are better off sticking to their own, and competition between nations is inevitable and even a constructive force in history.
Politics is everything. There is no aspect of society that is separable from political theory and action, a view that climaxed in totalitarianism, as depicted in George Orwell's novel 1984.''
Eduk
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Eduk »

I don't think fascism has a particular ideology to be honest. I agree with BG. Madness ends in a dictator and the dictator can call themselves whatever they want from one day to the next.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Burning ghost »

Georgeanna -
Hatred of democracy. Power should be held by those strong and clever enough to seize it, preferably a dictator.
The necessity of violence. Force is a legitimate way to achieve power and war is good because it binds us together.
Biology as destiny. Men are born to work, women to have lots of babies. Europeans are inherently superior thanks to a mix of breeding and education.
National identity. People are better off sticking to their own, and competition between nations is inevitable and even a constructive force in history.
Politics is everything. There is no aspect of society that is separable from political theory and action, a view that climaxed in totalitarianism, as depicted in George Orwell's novel 1984.''
If I may ...

There are certain things that are simply human nature. Some are very much driven by biological/evolutionary substrates, whilst others are easier to manage than others.

Biology is not “destiny.” As mentioned previously there is a huge difference within groups of people more so than between them. As a difference between males and females within the human race is also slght compared to many other species (especially our closest relatives - other primates.) One huge difference between sexes is in the biological role we play in reproduction - I am sure you understand these are undeniable differences that can arguably explain some of the broader psychological differences (I believe a certain Mr. Peterson has eisen to frame for some reason simply by pointing out that men and women ae different and that not every single psychological difference is driven purely by “social constructionism.”

People are better off historically “sticking to their own” becasue the unknown is a potential threat, and people are also better off opening themselves up to “others” because learning something new is potentially useful. We pull both ways for completely different, and likely equally valid, reasons.

If you hear someone looking to one reason for all the ills that befall them - and these reasons are all external forces to themselves - then I’d recommend asking them of other possible reasons other than those they are paying attention to. If something looks simple to someone it is either because they are unbelievably wise and insightful, or because their not looking hard enough at the problem. Sadly we’re all so dumb that when this happens to us, and it happens to everyone (crackpot and genius alike), that we’re much more likely to view ourselves as seeing the better part of the problem rather than being mindnumbingly myopic. Fear of ignorance is likely the biggest ignorance of all.
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Fooloso4
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Fooloso4 »

I have not read Jason Stanley’s book. My comments are based solely on what was said in the articles provided.

Stanley:
In the rhetoric of extreme nationalists, such a glorious past has been lost by the humiliation brought on by globalism, liberal cosmopolitanism, and respect for ‘universal values’ such as equality. These values are supposed to have made the nation weak in the face of real and threatening challenges to the nation’s existence.
Here we see the connection he makes between fascism and liberalism, or more precisely, liberal cosmopolitanism. Cosmopolitanism is a liberal rather than conservative value. It does not harken back to a lost golden age and threatens what remains the status quo. ‘Universal values’ stand in opposition to ‘our values’ and are thus progressive. These are both issues that today’s conservatives are quite concerned with, although the quarrel has been around at least since the time of Plato. (Georgeanna’s reference to Plato and fascism is in response to the misrepresentation of Plato as a fascist. This refers back to another thread).

As to the question of white males, take a look at the current and past members of the U.S. Congress, Executive, and Judiciary. Things do seem to be improving and the midterm elections may bring significant further change, but it is still a bastion of white, mostly Christian, males. Or click on the contributors page of the Federalist Society - the people who have shaped the current federal judiciary. One picture is worth a thousand words.

Religion is also an undeniable factor since it too relates to the status quo and the perceived treats to it by Muslims and atheists.

None of this means that conservative Christian white males are fascists but when the rhetoric is about the return of a nation to its glorious past one needs to pay attention. What specifically is it a return to and who and what stands in the way? Who and what are the “enemy of the people”? And, who are and are not "the people”? In general immigrants are not of the people. They are outsiders. Blacks may not be included or Jews or atheists or Muslims. Those whose patriotism is questioned because they are not nationalists or do not stand for the national anthem may not be of the people. In short, anyone whose identity is not sufficiently like one’s own may not be included and thus are either marginalized or labelled enemies of the people.

Since the threat is considered to be real the only rational response is to band together (see the etymology of the term fascist) behind a strong leader to oppose the enemy and keep them from power by whatever means necessary.

Fascism is not a precise or fixed term. Some who use the term focus on economic rather than social or political issues, or reduce social and political issues to economic issues. And from this common starting point things can go in opposite directions - the elimination of private property or the elimination of all programs that impede unencumbered private ownership. Using Nolte’s notion of fascism as the great “anti” philosophy, both may be labelled fascist. Both are anti-democratic. Both support violence as a means of attaining their ends. Both may appeal to a notion of biological determinism. Both may identify nationalism as the instantiation of ideology. Both may see politics as everything.

So, where does all this leave us? I don’t know. It should, however, serve as a caution against the tendency to substitute a label “fascist” for the need for political analysis. Calling Trump a fascist may not do the work it is intended to do. Those who do not like what he is doing may agree that he is a fascist, but those who approve of him may not care or may feel emboldened and vindicated if they identify themselves as fascists or they may feel insulted, driving them further apart from those who do not agree with their beliefs and values. And those in the middle might just feel bewildered. Uncertain what the term means or who is or is not a fascist.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 - thank you for this substantial response; succinct analysis and tying the strands together so as to clarify the term 'fascism' and what it might mean to different people. The term is complex; the label easy to throw around.

I agree with the need for caution - I wish politicians would do similar. The phrase ' the enemy of the people' has been well-used, is similar to 'the enemy of the state' and leads to accusations of treason, attacks on the media, individuals and other outsiders. Hatred by any other name.
The concern is where it might be leading...isn't it the people in the middle who suffer most ?

On a lighter note. Your 'one picture is worth a thousand words' is echoed here:

'All the President's Men' - artwork in the White House depicting Trump drinking with his Republican predecessors.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... republican
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