Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

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Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Consul - thanks for substantial extract and references.
This is most informative. I will have a re-read and more of a think later.
However, one thing that I wonder about straight away is in the penultimate paragraph:

'' For most neo-fascists, notably the several thousand militant Universal Nazis in the world and a handful of terrorists determined to rid the country of multiculturalism, Islamization and mass migration, the struggle against the decadence of the system in the name of higher ultranationalist values has become an end in itself. It is pursued using very different analyses and tactics, but – in stark contrast to the interwar Europe when the threat of revolutionary violence was very real – most fascist imagining is cut off from reality, and even the fantasies of attacks on the system in which neo-fascists indulge mostly remain virtual.''

I am not so sure about 'most fascist imagining is cut off from reality, and even the fantasies of attacks on the system in which neo-fascists indulge mostly remain virtual'.

This makes it sound like there is little chance of fascism occurring and that fascists can only dream...I'm afraid that is not the case. As was pointed out earlier in the same sentence - ' it is pursued using very different analyses and tactics'.

The study of fascism is fascinating. We should be learning from history, becoming more aware of the signs and symptoms. This might in some way prevent the underlying disease arising and becoming an epidemic. We are not immune.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Georgeanna wrote: October 17th, 2018, 5:56 am Some criticism of Szalay's article:

https://crev.info/2017/01/big-science-goes-total-left/

' What is fascism? (Live Science). Fascism belongs in the history and political science departments, not “live science.” In this not-so-subtle salvo against the Trump administration, Jessie Szalay pretends to offer a balanced presentation of the political history and nature of fascism, citing history experts. The opening photo shows Mussolini and Hitler. The timing of this article, however, is highly suspect, coming right after Democrats have accused Trump of fascism and ‘Hitlerian’ statements. That could be OK, shedding light on history, if Szalay also included some balance to defend Trump against the slander, but Szalay misrepresents conservatism as a stepping stone to fascism. Any mention of the anti-Trump protestors sporting blatantly communist slogans and resorting to violence? Crickets.'
I found that quote when looking for more information about Jessie Szalay.
When I read her article, I read it as an informative, objective piece. I saw nothing to indicate it was a 'not-so-subtle salvo against the Trump administration'.
So now I wonder - why would it be 'highly suspect'. Did it come right after Democratic accusations of Trump being a fascist and 'Hitlerian statements' ?
Why would Szalay need to defend Trump against the slander or even mention anti-Trump protestors ?

As for the 'live science' - it is perhaps not science, or 'Big Science' as we might think of it.
Here's the mission statement:

' For the science geek in everyone, Live Science breaks down the stories behind the most interesting news and photos on the Internet, while also digging up fascinating discoveries that hit on a broad range of fields, from dinosaurs and archaeology to wacky physics and astronomy to health and human behavior. If you want to learn something interesting every day, Live Science is the place for you.

Mission Statement
To empower and inspire our readers with the tools needed to understand the world and appreciate its everyday awe.'

https://www.livescience.com/62824-about-us.html
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

OK, from the beginning of the article criticizing Szalay and others:

Creation Evolution Headlines
https://crev.info/2017/01/big-science-goes-total-left/

Big Science Goes Total Left in Opposing Trump
January 28, 2017 | David F. Coppedge

'Have they no shame? Science is not supposed to take political positions. What they’re doing this week undermines their credibility as unbiased seekers of the truth.

Everyone knows the country is deeply divided politically, but there are certain groups who should keep out of politics on company time. If a scientist wants to express his or her views privately, that’s legit as it is for any citizen. But pretending that ‘science’ per se (as represented through scientific institutions and journals) only has one view of the new president is out of bounds. Maybe Big Media is refusing to report on scientists who support the new administration, but all you read in the major media is that ‘scientists’ not only dislike President Trump; they vow to fight him. Here are some samples:...'

[ ....of which Szalay is only one of many on the list ]

Doesn't sound too objective to me. But fascinating to read.

About 'CreationEvolution':
'Since August 2000, Creation-Evolution Headlines has brought breaking news and “color commentary” to the origins debate. Unlike most science reporting sites, CEH is not slavishly devoted to defending Charles Darwin’s views, but critically examines the evidence and the underlying assumptions of evolutionism, pointing out logical and philosophical fallacies the other science news sites routinely ignore, and praising good science that gets it right. And we do it with flair! Readers enjoy the incisive wit and penetrating analysis in our reporting. Hey! why not have a little fun when the mainstream media are fawning over Emperor Charlie parading around in his new clothes. Our opinions (in green) are set apart from the news (in black), so that readers can examine the evidence and the original sources for themselves. Critical thinking–so sadly lacking in science reporting–is what we promote, and what you will find here. Creation-Evolution Headlines is sponsored by Master Plan Association, a California non-profit corporation. Founder and Editor is David F. Coppedge, who also took the nature photographs on the front page. Subscribe to our newsletter and join in the discussion on the greatest question of all time: where did the universe and life come from?'

So, even if the Szalay article did come right after Democratic criticism of Trump, so what ?
Why the attack. Why put her down..
Fear again ?
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

About David Coppedge, for anyone interested. Ironic that he says 'that there are certain groups who should keep out of politics on company time.'
He was fired for bringing his extreme ideas to work:

https://freescience.today/story/david-coppedge/

'he has not allowed his experience to silence him from speaking out about intelligent design. He continues to serve on the board of the pro-intelligent design film company Illustra Media, which celebrated its 20th anniversary in 2017.'

So important to suss out credible sources on what fascism is. I trust Szalay.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: October 16th, 2018, 11:40 pm
Consul wrote: October 16th, 2018, 1:47 pm

It is a particular political ideology.
Though it is also a style. IOW it has been pulled out of its particular ideology (the term that is) and is also applied to any dominating, hierarchical, controlling ideology. Deleuze and Guattari used it this way and I think other philosophers, but certainly also in semi-everyday speech. One could even argue that the style itself is an ideology, though at a higher level of abstraction. But it's not the specific ideology, in any case, that Fascsts had.
I missed this. I don't know about Deleuze and Guattari - how did they use the style of fascism ?
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 7:21 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote: October 16th, 2018, 11:40 pm Though it is also a style. IOW it has been pulled out of its particular ideology (the term that is) and is also applied to any dominating, hierarchical, controlling ideology. Deleuze and Guattari used it this way and I think other philosophers, but certainly also in semi-everyday speech. One could even argue that the style itself is an ideology, though at a higher level of abstraction. But it's not the specific ideology, in any case, that Fascsts had.
I missed this. I don't know about Deleuze and Guattari - how did they use the style of fascism ?
Saying what these guys mean is, well, speculative. I took them as pro-desire and seeing fascism in pretty much anything that either systematically goes after desire to shut it down or even in the smallest way shuts down any particular desire. They seem to see desires as inherently emancipatory, exploratory, creating more forms of life, and since the sense of the individual is challenged in many ways by their work, desires are more or less more real and important than we are. They are materialists at least when they wrote together who view production as important and see desires as productive. Fascism is rigid This is true for what is traditionally considered fascism, where you have a lot of really anal male movements and posing as central, but also a very hierarchical society with a lot of rules and ideals (in a sense platonic forms that everything should strive to look like - and one problem with classic values ((as opposed to romantic)) is that they tend to aim for the perfect statis, rather than some more exploratory trying a lot of stuff out).

Here's someone else's short take....
Fascism represents a collapse of desiring-production into death, a mass revolutionary investment of desire that is emancipatory in nature, but that becomes blocked off by the mechanism of suppression of passions transforming them into a destructive State apparatus. Fascism reveals both sides of desire – its revolutionary form and its self-destructive, suicidal one, both of which become indistinguishable from each other.[6] The question how to avoid counter-revolutionary movement of desire, therefore, becomes the question: why did the masses desire fascism? For Deleuze and Guattari, this desire for fascism can be explained only through the relationship between interests, on the one hand, and passions, on the other.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Oh, and as should be clear, the fascism looked at this way can come from anywhere in the political spectrum. And also from things seen as not particularly political, like say corporate culture or pedagogy.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

How could I forget Wikipedia ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
with Extensive bibliography; Further Reading and External Links.
We could be here forever...

Might be useful to make a summary of progress to date.
We are on page 5 already. It can get a tad confusing...so many takes...
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Karpel Tunnel - if describing the meaning of D&G is speculative, this is nothing new in the world of philosophy, is it ? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I can't say I understand it all. However, did appreciate your take on traditional fascism - 'really anal male movements' - it would be laughable if the consequences weren't so bloody awful.

Your second quote - is quite dense, or perhaps , probably, it is me. Who speaketh thus ?
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 8:27 am Karpel Tunnel - if describing the meaning of D&G is speculative, this is nothing new in the world of philosophy, is it ? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I can't say I understand it all. However, did appreciate your take on traditional fascism - 'really anal male movements' - it would be laughable if the consequences weren't so bloody awful.

Your second quote - is quite dense, or perhaps , probably, it is me. Who speaketh thus ?
To the last question...
http://gerusija.com/djordje-hristov-fas ... -guattari/

I am not weighing in particular on men vs. women when I call traditional fascism that. I am sure the anal ideals run through the society. But so many of the images have to do with men standing, marching, posing in rigid ways, it comes to mind. In fact the whole things seems almost to emerge from some ideal of the unnaffected, immobile, perfect, manly, classic standing there. Like, hey, this is really cool and ideal, let's use this as a guiding metaphor for society, it's parades, boss worker relations, family dynamics, business organizations, etc. The unmoved powerful father either standing by the window, sitting in the armchair, in the smoker's lounge at the golf club, sitting in the saddle, at the head of the boardroom table...strong chin, determination, muscles oiled if not shirt is present. That ideal can certainly have poured out of women on men. The frightening phrase Ayn Rand has certainly been causal to a lot of this unfluid, constipated sense of the Good.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: October 18th, 2018, 9:00 am
Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 8:27 am Karpel Tunnel - if describing the meaning of D&G is speculative, this is nothing new in the world of philosophy, is it ? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I can't say I understand it all. However, did appreciate your take on traditional fascism - 'really anal male movements' - it would be laughable if the consequences weren't so bloody awful.

Your second quote - is quite dense, or perhaps , probably, it is me. Who speaketh thus ?
To the last question...
http://gerusija.com/djordje-hristov-fas ... -guattari/

I am not weighing in particular on men vs. women when I call traditional fascism that. I am sure the anal ideals run through the society. But so many of the images have to do with men standing, marching, posing in rigid ways, it comes to mind. In fact the whole things seems almost to emerge from some ideal of the unnaffected, immobile, perfect, manly, classic standing there. Like, hey, this is really cool and ideal, let's use this as a guiding metaphor for society, it's parades, boss worker relations, family dynamics, business organizations, etc. The unmoved powerful father either standing by the window, sitting in the armchair, in the smoker's lounge at the golf club, sitting in the saddle, at the head of the boardroom table...strong chin, determination, muscles oiled if not shirt is present. That ideal can certainly have poured out of women on men. The frightening phrase Ayn Rand has certainly been causal to a lot of this unfluid, constipated sense of the Good.
I was too flippant in my earlier showing of appreciation on your take on traditional fascism. It sounded clever but really isn't.
I really don't condone phrases such as ' anal male movements' - it is virtually meaningless with regard to fascism. There's much more, as can be seen, to fascist psyche and motivation to reach some ideal state.
As for their being an 'ideal man'...well. It's a romantic fiction found in Mills and Boon. Some females may swoon and dream of passionate nights held in the arms of that strong-chinned chap. Mostly, they know it's about escapism - as is any form of light entertainment.

Fascism - is not an ideal poured out of women on men. And it isn't about men v women.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by ThomasHobbes »

' anal male movements'

Sh1t by definition.
Georgeanna
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

ThomasHobbes wrote: October 18th, 2018, 2:11 pm ' anal male movements'

Sh1t by definition.
Beware pellet poop.
Georgeanna
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Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by Georgeanna »

Hobbes - what's with you and all the one-liners ?
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
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Re: Wise up to fascism - it's a man thing !

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Georgeanna wrote: October 18th, 2018, 3:02 pm Hobbes - what's with you and all the one-liners ?
Did you miss the pun?
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