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What is fascism?

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Steve3007
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Steve3007 » October 21st, 2018, 5:32 pm

There are, and have been in the past, a lot of extraordinary and controversial views expressed on this website, and those views have not been deleted or censored. If ThomasHobbes's posts have been deleted, or partially deleted, I suspect it's probably because a large proportion of them are just personal insults, which break the forum rules. I rarely see a post of his that doesn't include some comment along the lines of "you're an idiot". He seems almost incapable of talking in any other terms.

Express whatever views you like. Just stop slagging people off. It's quite simple really. Treat people with respect. If you think they're too stupid to deserve your respect, don't talk to them.

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Greta
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Greta » October 21st, 2018, 6:27 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:30 pm
Greta wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:26 pm
What a lot of sulking. People have their posts removed on forums all the time.

I have had many posts deleted myself, both before modding and since. Calling that fascism effectively dismisses the claims of those suffering under actual fascism as trivial through false equivalence.
You asked me for a thoughtful post of fascism. I made that post. It was deleted.So **** off.
Stuff happens, Hobbesy. I lost good posts too in the early days and whined at the mods just like you. It took years for the penny to drop.

I would not confuse fascism with mods strictly enforcing forum rules. I'm not so strict these days personally. Over time you find that if there are no especially bad actors then threads sometimes will flare up but people generally seem work things out one way or another without mods being involved. It's a balancing act. You don't want people coming to the forum and finding a load of flame wars when they are hoping for material of possible interest.

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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Fooloso4 » October 21st, 2018, 7:54 pm

This may get lost in all the arguing about overzealous moderation, but in the hope that there is still enough tolerance and flexibility to allow it to stand as it is, against the risk of it being shunted elsewhere because it will be seen as off topic rather than expanding on issues and assumptions that are germane to any philosophical discussion, I will post it. But true to the theme of what follows, I will not spell out the connections.

TH:
There's a good reason why Karl Popper named Plato as an enemy of the Free Society.
Yes, there is. The reason is, he did not know how to read Plato. If one wishes to know how to read Plato, a good place to start is by reading Plato’s Phaedrus where Socrates discusses the problem of writing.
Fascism is cured by reading
There is some truth in this, but just seeing the words on the page is not enough. One of the best teachers for learning to read Plato, beside Plato himself, is Nietzsche. He is, furthermore, one of the best teachers for learning to read the tradition. One of the keys for doing so is an art of writing that was all but forgotten by Nietzsche’s time, that is, esotericism. By this he meant the art of saying something while seeming to say something else. This is something that the early modern thinkers - Bacon, Descartes, Spinoza, Montaigne and others knew about.For a book length discussion of this: “Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Writing”, by Arthur M. Melzer.

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Greta
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Greta » October 21st, 2018, 11:56 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:54 pm
One of the keys for doing so is an art of writing that was all but forgotten by Nietzsche’s time, that is, esotericism. By this he meant the art of saying something while seeming to say something else.
Interesting. No doubt this is a silly question but, based on that shorthand definition, why wouldn't the doublespeak of politicians and salespeople be considered to be esoteric?

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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 4:48 am

Fascism doesn't stand alone.

''Fascism, Nazism and Stalinism have in common that they offered the atomized individual a new refuge and security. These systems are the culmination of alienation. The individual is made to feel powerless and insignificant, but taught to project all of his human powers into the figure of the leader, the state, the ‘fatherland,’ to whom he has to submit and whom he has to worship. He escapes from freedom and into a new idolatry. All the achievements of individuality and reason, from the late Middle Ages to the nineteenth century are sacrificed on the altars of the new idols. ...built on the most flagrant lies, both with regard to their programs and to their leaders. Erich Fromm, The Sane Society, New York, NY, Rinehart & Company, (1955), p. 208''


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Compariso ... _Socialism

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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 5:02 am

''Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easily for us, if there appeared on the scene somebody saying "I want to re-open Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares". Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and point the finger at any of its new instances — every day and in every part of the world. Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism" (indicating "eternal fascism"), in The New York Review of Books (22 June 1995)''


''The biggest threat to America today is not communism. It's moving America toward a fascist theocracy, and everything that's happened during the Reagan administration is steering us right down that pipe … I really think that. … When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view, and if that code happens to be very, very right wing, almost toward Attila the Hun... Frank Zappa, Crossfire debate on censorship (1986).''


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fascism

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Burning ghost
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Burning ghost » October 22nd, 2018, 5:23 am

Georgeanna wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 4:48 am
Fascism doesn't stand alone.

''Fascism, Nazism and Stalinism have in common that they offered the atomized individual a new refuge and security. These systems are the culmination of alienation. The individual is made to feel powerless and insignificant, but taught to project all of his human powers into the figure of the leader, the state, the ‘fatherland,’ to whom he has to submit and whom he has to worship. He escapes from freedom and into a new idolatry. All the achievements of individuality and reason, from the late Middle Ages to the nineteenth century are sacrificed on the altars of the new idols. ...built on the most flagrant lies, both with regard to their programs and to their leaders. Erich Fromm, The Sane Society, New York, NY, Rinehart & Company, (1955), p. 208''


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Compariso ... _Socialism
And here there is a problem. All political parties aim to, or say they aim to, improve the life of the people. “Nationalism” is not in itself an “evil” nor is “fascism.” The results of these ideas cause human suffering and desth on a grand scale because the world doesn’t fit to “human ideals.” “Stalinism” I see as a repercussion of “Communication.” The idea of going to the extreme tyrannical end of the “Socialist” idea and forces someone within the non-ideal world (such as Stalin) to take full advantage of the situation, likely bred from some sense of either personal injustice exploited and exported to society at large for political currency, and or due to sheer single-minded brutality (the former being Stalin’s political posturing tool, the later his individual nature.)

One end of the spectrum believes the people should have equal say in their destinies and the other end believes some people don’t know enough to make such hard decisions and that only the “best” should decide the fate/course of human society.

Both are correct and they both work by playing out against each other in the real world. The conflict is necessary. Finding any balanced middle ground is an endless task. When the balance shift too much one way or another totalitarian states are established to “steady the boat”; sometimes they do, but as with any large shift in societal norms the effect is more often a violent and brutal affair.

“Fascism” is but one particular name given to how adherence to one singular view of society will end up playing out. “Nazism,” “Socialism,” “liberalism,” and all the others turn out just the same if they ignore the other; that is in a brutal dictatorship due to actually intent or by way of natural politicised action against this or that “regime.”

The essential nature of the individual human is mostly anarchic whilst the communion of humans shows the political nature we have, to establish mutually benefical means of being brought about via democratic and structured institutions (small and large.)
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Burning ghost
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Burning ghost » October 22nd, 2018, 5:30 am

Georgeanna wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:02 am
''Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easily for us, if there appeared on the scene somebody saying "I want to re-open Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares". Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and point the finger at any of its new instances — every day and in every part of the world. Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism" (indicating "eternal fascism"), in The New York Review of Books (22 June 1995)''


''The biggest threat to America today is not communism. It's moving America toward a fascist theocracy, and everything that's happened during the Reagan administration is steering us right down that pipe … I really think that. … When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view, and if that code happens to be very, very right wing, almost toward Attila the Hun... Frank Zappa, Crossfire debate on censorship (1986).''


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fascism
I can see the sense in that second quote. I have often pointed out, and thought about, the fact that the US lacking a “monarchy” is perhaps quite detrimental to the political landscape as I get the impession of a disjoint among the citizens over there. In the UK I’d say the spread and influence of the Church is far less political compared to the US. It does appear that in the UK whilst there is a Queen with immense powers the fact that she never uses them, that parliament can legally be disbanded by her and that the armed forces serve her, is very different to the set up in the US. Whilst I think the US system is good the issue of the more hardline religious attitudes within the country override this (IMO.)

I may be quote wrong about this so counter arguments are more than welcome. This is just a fleeting observation and general view of the different influences on governments that religious views have.
AKA badgerjelly

Georgeanna
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 5:32 am

The ugly face of Fascism. Trump.

Interesting article written before he became President. Includes videos.

Trumpism lines up with all 14 of Umberto Eco's features of eternal fascism. They are described and illustrated well in this article.
The unfortunate thing is that even if he hadn't become President and even if he is chucked out of his powerful position, Trumpism is here to stay.
Fascism by any other name. Deal with it.

------


Yes, Trump Is a Fascist — Here’s the Checklist

The Donald is a unique threat to American democracy

by MATTHEW GAULT

Words have meaning. When I called Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump a fascist in a recent article for War Is Boring, I meant it. I did not mean “dictatorial,” though he is. I did not mean “authoritarian,” though he is. I meant fascist — a practitioner of virulent and horrifying ideology that poisons everything it touches.


https://medium.com/war-is-boring/yes-tr ... 20ad4d8163

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » October 22nd, 2018, 5:46 am

Georgeanna wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:02 am
''Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easily for us, if there appeared on the scene somebody saying "I want to re-open Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares". Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and point the finger at any of its new instances — every day and in every part of the world. Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism" (indicating "eternal fascism"), in The New York Review of Books (22 June 1995)''
So, what are the examples of Ur-fascism in innocent disguises?

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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 5:49 am

Ur-Fascism
Fascism is eternal.
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

Umberto Eco lived through Italian Fascism

''In 1942, at the age of ten, I received the First Provincial Award of Ludi Juveniles (a voluntary, compulsory competition for young Italian Fascists—that is, for every young Italian). I elaborated with rhetorical skill on the subject “Should we die for the glory of Mussolini and the immortal destiny of Italy?” My answer was positive. I was a smart boy.

I spent two of my early years among the SS, Fascists, Republicans, and partisans shooting at one another, and I learned how to dodge bullets. It was good exercise.''

.....


'' I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.''

There follows the list and explanation of the features.

Georgeanna
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 5:56 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:46 am
Georgeanna wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:02 am
''Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easily for us, if there appeared on the scene somebody saying "I want to re-open Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares". Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and point the finger at any of its new instances — every day and in every part of the world. Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism" (indicating "eternal fascism"), in The New York Review of Books (22 June 1995)''
So, what are the examples of Ur-fascism in innocent disguises?
Eco's feature no14:

''Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.''

Trumpspeak.

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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Dachshund » October 22nd, 2018, 6:01 am

Make no mistake - the ascent of the leftist (neo-Marxist) politically correct movement is the US ( in particular its rise to power on university/colleges campuses across America) is one example of totalitarian ideological fascism on the march. The rise of State multiculturalism ( another determinate neo-Marxist social project) in the West ( US, UK Australia, Canada, etc.) over recent decades is yet another.


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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Burning ghost » October 22nd, 2018, 6:03 am

There doesn’t seem to be any real attempt here to DEFINE fascism.

Saying who you wish to call a “fascist” doesn’t really help narrow down a definition. If someone can despute what I’ve outlined I’d be glad to hear from them.

At the moment appears to be being used as a derogatory term, and term to slander someone’s name, and as a kind of self-righteous posturing. I don’t think it is ONLY a nationalistic attitude that defines “fascism” - or if it is why say “fascism” when you can say “nationalism”, and is “nationalism” necessarily a bad thing if it is not tied to xenophobic views?
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Georgeanna
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Re: What is fascism?

Post by Georgeanna » October 22nd, 2018, 6:18 am

Burning ghost wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 6:03 am
There doesn’t seem to be any real attempt here to DEFINE fascism.

Saying who you wish to call a “fascist” doesn’t really help narrow down a definition. If someone can despute what I’ve outlined I’d be glad to hear from them.

At the moment appears to be being used as a derogatory term, and term to slander someone’s name, and as a kind of self-righteous posturing. I don’t think it is ONLY a nationalistic attitude that defines “fascism” - or if it is why say “fascism” when you can say “nationalism”, and is “nationalism” necessarily a bad thing if it is not tied to xenophobic views?
If you want a definition of fascism, there are plenty narrow ones be found elsewhere. Dictionaries, Wikipedia.
I see this thread as a way to give voice to what people, here and historically, see as fascism - so, not just what, but who, where, how...why.

It is wide-ranging.
I think it fascinating the complexity of fascism. The way people use the term.
But more important. The potential actuality of it in current political spheres.

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