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Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

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Fooloso4
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Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Fooloso4 » November 15th, 2018, 9:10 pm

Two recent events may have proven to be too much even for influential Trump supporters.

Barring Jim Acosta from the White House has provoked Fox News has joined other news organizations in their lawsuit against Trump. It has up until now been the case that Fox News would defend Trump no matter what he said or did.

A newly formed group ‘Checks and Balances’, whose members have ties to the Federalist Society (Trump’s go to source for names for appointments to the federal courts) has issued a mission statement clearly aimed at curtailing Trump’s abuse of power. His latest ploy, firing Sessions and appointing Whitaker, in order to end the Mueller investigation has proved to be too much.

There mission statement:
We are a group of attorneys who would traditionally be considered conservative or libertarian. We believe in the rule of law, the power of
truth, the independence of the criminal justice system, the imperative of individual rights, and the necessity of civil discourse. We believe these principles apply regardless of the party or persons in power. We believe in “a government of laws, not of men.”

We believe in the Constitution. We believe in free speech, a free press, separation of powers, and limited government. We have faith in the resiliency of the American experiment. We seek to provide a voice and a network for like-minded attorneys to discuss these ideas, and we hope that they will join with us to stand up for these principles.
They may not wield direct political power, but they will certainly influence the hearts and minds of educated conservatives whose concerns go beyond lowering corporate taxes and deregulation. A couple of points made in an article in the New Republic published today Entitled: “Does the Federalist Society Still Need Trump?” https://newrepublic.com/article/152251/ ... need-trump

The Federalist Society has tolerated Trump because he was their ticket to controlling the judiciary. Now that they have a lock on the Supreme Court they may be less willing to overlook his threats to democracy. If support for him diminishes they may be emboldened and less fearful of reprisal if they are critical of him.

Trump is evidently worried about what the Mueller investigation will reveal, but attempts to curtail it will also be damaging and are likely to be unsuccessful. I won’t make any predictions on the outcome of any of this or anything else he does. Each day brings something new.

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Greta
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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Greta » November 15th, 2018, 11:06 pm

Trump went too far when he refused to show his finances or separate himself from his businesses before taking the job, which should have been conditional based on those criteria being met. However, nothing happened. I expect the same this time and all times into the future now that the precedent has been set.

As far as I can tell, our only hope for honesty and rationality in politics at this stage is if AI achieves singularity and takes over ...

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 4:18 am

It's interesting to examine the key points of that "Checks and Balances" group. How recently was it written? It does seem to be directly and obviously written as a rebuke to Trump, with his well documented attacks on the US Constitution, on the concept of objective truth, on the free press, on "civil discourse" and particularly on "government of laws, not men". Whether this "friendly fire" criticism will make any difference, I couldn't possibly try to guess.
Greta wrote:Trump went too far when he refused to show his finances or separate himself from his businesses before taking the job, which should have been conditional based on those criteria being met. However, nothing happened. I expect the same this time and all times into the future now that the precedent has been set.

From the point of view of people who already didn't support Trump then obviously he did, as you say, go too far a long time ago. But I presume the question being asked is whether he has gone too far for the US political tribes that he used as the vehicle for his rise to power - the uneasy coalition of conservatives and libertarians. And, if he has gone too far for them, does it matter? I think Trump's view would probably be that it doesn't matter because he has The People behind him and any criticism, from any side of the US political spectrum, is just "the swamp" trying to attack the The People's champion.

It's now looking like the Florida recount is going to go in favour of Rick Scott (Rep) and against Bill Nelson (Dem) by a fraction of a percentage point. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Scott had lost. Trump was already reeling out the funny stories of voters wearing disguises. I'd quite like to have seen how furiously he would have railed against it if his guy had lost.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Greta » November 16th, 2018, 4:39 am

Steve3007 wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 4:18 am
I think Trump's view would probably be that it doesn't matter because he has The People behind him and any criticism, from any side of the US political spectrum, is just "the swamp" trying to attack the The People's champion.
Exactly. Somehow he has created this cult of personality where he can do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters, just as long as he stays extreme.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 5:42 am

Greta wrote:Exactly. Somehow he has created this cult of personality where he can do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters, just as long as he stays extreme.
If I were a Trump supporter, I would seize on your use of the word "somehow" in the above and my narrative would be that the champagne quaffing liberal intelligentsia in their ivory towers (made from ivory plucked from the howling faces of innocent elephants) still just don't get why good, honest horny handed sons of the soil quietly support Trump. I thought I'd get that in before someone else did.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Fooloso4 » November 16th, 2018, 12:23 pm

Steve3007:
It's interesting to examine the key points of that "Checks and Balances" group. How recently was it written?
November 13th. The group is led by George Conway, who is the husband of Kellyanne Conway (Trump’s shameless apologist).
I think Trump's view would probably be that it doesn't matter because he has The People behind him and any criticism, from any side of the US political spectrum, is just "the swamp" trying to attack the The People's champion.
A key factor is Trump’s relationship with Fox News. Will their amicus brief, taking sides with “the enemy of people” cause a rift with Trump? Will Trump’s mocking of Hannity behind his back sour their relationship? Trump put Hannity and Fox News in a compromising position when he claimed that Hannity would be a “special guest” at his rallies prior to the midterms and then, ignoring the statement that Fox issued that they do not condone any talent participating in campaign events, called him up on stage anyway, saying he did not care.
(https://www.thedailybeast.com/even-trum ... -questions)

Although Trump demands loyalty he has shown himself time and again to be incapable of being loyal to anyone else. If the breakup becomes a battle I think the kids will go with Fox. I don’t think that most viewers will believe that Fox too is fake news. They had put their trust in Fox long before they put their trust in Trump.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 12:29 pm

November 13th. The group is led by George Conway, who is the husband of Kellyanne Conway (Trump’s shameless apologist).
Interesting. I do remember reading that Kellyanne Conway's husband didn't always toe the party line, as it were.

Interesting points about Fox too.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 1:26 pm

As I noted here:

viewtopic.php?p=323546#p323546

the disconnect between the Fox News/Sarah Sanders description of what happened in that 9 second long Jim Acosta incident and what was actually captured to have happened on camera is, even by modern post-truth standards, just weird. But it's interesting that in the last hour or so a (Trump appointed) judge has re-instated Acosta's White House press pass.

But maybe the solution for Trump is simply to drop Fox and move further right? And, as with former lawyers and White House employees, claim that any subsequent anti-Trump stories are just sour grapes? Perhaps "Breitbart and Friends" will be the new morning TV News information source of choice. I always thought "Fox and Friends" sounded (appropriately enough) like the name of a kids' cartoon show, anyway.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 2:50 pm

Maybe they played the wrong game when they claimed they were attacked physically by Acosta?
I think if they had assaulted Acosta on camera and claimed that they didn't then they might have got more traction.
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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Fooloso4 » November 16th, 2018, 3:20 pm

Steve3007:

… the disconnect between the Fox News/Sarah Sanders description of what happened in that 9 second long Jim Acosta incident and what was actually captured to have happened on camera is, even by modern post-truth standards, just weird.

Well, Trump is a fan of Infowars and friends with its founder Alex Jones. Both are waging a war on verifiable information, which they have in common with Russia’s disinformation campaign “Operation Infektion”. What is not clear is whether Trump is also a victim, believing stories he gets from Jones and others to be true or just passing them along because they are useful to him.
But maybe the solution for Trump is simply to drop Fox and move further right?
Trump does not simply drop things. He loves to fight. I don’t know that any other source with have the same influence that Fox does with his followers. In any case, it seems more likely that they will continue to play nice together, at least for now. It also seems likely that it will not be more that a few days until the next weird thing happens.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Eduk » November 16th, 2018, 3:41 pm

I can't read trump's mind so I'm not 100% sure what he has or hasn't fallen for. But at best it is the equivalent of closing ones eyes and running a red light.
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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Steve3007 » November 16th, 2018, 5:01 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:Well, Trump is a fan of Infowars and friends with its founder Alex Jones. Both are waging a war on verifiable information, which they have in common with Russia’s disinformation campaign “Operation Infektion”. What is not clear is whether Trump is also a victim, believing stories he gets from Jones and others to be true or just passing them along because they are useful to him.
In this case it was Sarah Sanders who tried to use the doctored Infowars video as evidence. I presume it's the latter. It's just a pragmatic attitude to information. It's not true or untrue. It's useful or not useful.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Fooloso4 » November 16th, 2018, 5:16 pm

Steve3007:
In this case it was Sarah Sanders who tried to use the doctored Infowars video as evidence. I presume it's the latter. It's just a pragmatic attitude to information. It's not true or untrue. It's useful or not useful.
I do not know whether she knew it was doctored or not, but it should be her job to determine its veracity. I also do not know whether she has abandoned the distinction between true and false or just tries to blur it when it is useful. But it is all part of the game of creating a world of “alternative facts” where “the truth is not the truth”.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Greta » November 17th, 2018, 12:20 am

Steve3007 wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 5:42 am
Greta wrote:Exactly. Somehow he has created this cult of personality where he can do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters, just as long as he stays extreme.
If I were a Trump supporter, I would seize on your use of the word "somehow" in the above and my narrative would be that the champagne quaffing liberal intelligentsia in their ivory towers (made from ivory plucked from the howling faces of innocent elephants) still just don't get why good, honest horny handed sons of the soil quietly support Trump. I thought I'd get that in before someone else did.
Thanks Steve, strong observation.

In this renaissance of unreason, nothing bugs me more than that kind of game playing ... aha! An opening! Never mind if it's obviously not the author's intent. (I'm more into coffee and tea than the usual elite quaffables). I hear that the horny handed sons of manufacturing are noticing that their champion did not bring home the bacon.

With the Mueller investigation you can tell when Trump is feeling threatened because he becomes shrill and obsessive, as now with the possibility that his new man may be forced to stand down anyway, even if he would rather go bat for his dodgy boss.

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Re: Has Trump Finally Gone Too Far?

Post by Fooloso4 » November 17th, 2018, 1:21 am

Greta:
In this renaissance of unreason ...
Nicely put!

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