WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

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Dachshund
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WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Dachshund »

I think I am right in saying that natural human equality is the first axiom that is set down in the text of the American Creed (?), and while it may be an extremely naive observation (one I must confess I have made as a foreigner who became a very keen follower of events in American politics after Donald Trump was elected President in 2016 and promptly set about implementing radical new Conservative social policies) I am especially interested in the interconnected issues of immigration policy and race relations in the United States..

Again, I may have this all terribly wrong, but it seems to me that most white Americans today sincerely believe that their forebears were, from the very beginning, genuinely dedicated to the ideal of achieving true racial equality in the United States? They will, of course, openly admit that the evils of slavery and racial segregation were shameful facts in the United States of the past, but they will emphasise how, despite this, most Americans were, in spirit and deed, always working steadily towards fulfilling the Creedal/Constitutional promise, "all men are created equal".To put it another way, white folk in the US today appear hold a perception that the majority of decent, ordinary, everyday Americans were,consistently and conscientiously committed to the harmonising, and ultimate resolution of, racial division and race discrimination in the United States throughout most of their nation's history; that they were ,in the main, all dedicated to realising the great "American Dream", i.e; that lofty ideal which was, in short, the achievement of genuine equality of opportunity made available to each and every citizen of the United States regardless of his/her race or ethnicity.

The point I would like to make is that if what I have presumed above is, in fact, reasonably accurate, then I can confirm that there are tremendous numbers of woefully misinformed Americans living in the United States today. The reality is that for the overwhelming majority of its history,( from 1776 right up to the mid-1960s), the United States was an overtly and unashamedly racist republic; throughout this period of her history, a clear majority of both the members of the ruling political classes, and the general public, wanted America to remain an exclusively White European nation.

The American Founders were, by and large, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants and that's precisely the way they wanted their new republic to always remain, i.e; a White, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant/Christian nation, and I have no doubt that the radical, neo-Marxist,political left in the United States today, as it manifests itself in organisations like the Democrat Party, would not hesitate for a moment in hysterically denouncing the American Founders and most of their descendants as vile racists/White supremacists/Alt-Right hate-mongers/Nazis/White Fascists and so on and so forth, were they given a brief overview -( which I will now provide) - of the relevant historical facts.

The American Creed states its faith in the view that natural human equality is axiomatic, a notion which was also articulated in the American "Declaration of Independence" by its author Thomas Jefferson who, in the preamble to the document's, penned the famous words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" . The truth is that Jackson was well-known to be a prolific slaveholder, a man who did not believe that the races were equal at all. A shameless liar and appalling hypocrite, that phrase from the "Declaration of Independence" will rightly haunt his memory forever.

Not many people know that in 1776, when Jackson's "Declaration of Independence" was ratified, there were black negro slaves in all 13 colonies and in the entire New World all the way from Canada to the tip of South America. In 1770, 40% of the White households in Manhattan owned black slaves, and their were more negro slaves in the colony of New York, than in Georgia.

Nine of the first eleven US Presidents were slaveholders, the two exception being John Adams and John Quincy Adams. It is true that Jefferson thought slavery was a bad thing, and that slaves would eventually be freed, but he wanted freed slaves to be sent back to Africa. There is a qoutation from him on the wall of the Jefferson Memorial that states...

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free."

In the original, however, Jefferson didn't stop there, adding...

"Nor is it less certain that the two races equally free cannot live in the same government."

This part of the quotation has been conveniently forgotten. As third President of the United States, Jefferson wanted all Blacks to be deported and separated from Whites, so that they would be (quote): "beyond the reach of mixture". James Madison ( the fourth US President) agreed; he wanted the US government to buy up every slave and deport them. After serving as President, Madison ran the "American Colonization Society" (ACS), which was founded in 1816 for the purpose of expediting the removal of Blacks from America back to Africa. At the inaugural meeting of the Society, Henry Clay, the American statesman who represented Kentucky in both the Senate and the House of Representatives, explained its purpose as being (quote)...

"...to rid our country of a useless and pernicious, if not dangerous, portion of the population."

Some of the most famous early American Founders were not just members of the Society, they were officers; besides James Madison, there were: James Monroe ( fifth President of the US),Andrew Jackson; Daniel Webster; Stephen Douglas; William Seward; John Randolph; Winfield Scott, John Marshall and Francis Scott Key. James Monroe work so hard to help freed Black slaves in America leave the country and re-establish themselves in Liberia, that grateful Liberians renamed their capital, "Monrovia", in his memory.

The Founders, in short, want Black OUT and WHITE in. After the US Constitution was ratified in 1788, the very first US Congress had to decide who could be an American. They passed a law stating that only (quote)

"...free White person could be citizens of the new country."

Black could not be citizens even if they had been living in the Colonies for generations. It took an Amendment to the Constitution in 1868 for Blacks to become citizens, and American Indians didn't finally become citizens until 1924.

From Colonial times on, there was very strong opposition to mixed-race marriage. Massachusetts prohibited miscegenation fro 1705 to 1843 and repealed the ban only because people thought that it was no longer needed. They believed the idea of mixing was so repellent, that no one would practice it even if it were legal. Of the 50 US States, 44 at one time had laws prohibiting inter-racial marriage.

White Americans did not want Blacks to vote. In 1855, there were 31 States in the Union, but Blacks were permitted to vote in only four of them, they were all in New England, and, together they accounted for only 4% of the total Black population in the country. The Federal government made sure that Blacks could not vote in the Territories. When the incorporated Territory of Oregon joined the Union in 1859, its Constitution stated that no Black person could come and live in, or even visit the State.

Most American probably take it for granted that Abraham Lincoln - the great emancipattor of the Black race in America - was a committed advocate of racial equality. In fact he was not. During the Lincoln - Douglas debates of 1858, Lincoln said this...

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favour of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the White and Black races, that I am not, nor ever have been in favour of making voters or jurors out of Negros, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to inter-marry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and Black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any man am in favour of having the superior position assigned to the White race.

In the debate at Alton, Lincoln said that the authors of the "Declaration of Independence" (quote) : "...did not intend to declare all men equal in all respects. They did not mean to say that all men were equal in intellect, moral development or social capacity."


Lincoln agreed with Thomas Jefferson, he wanted to free America's Black slaves and then deport them. In 1862, Lincoln had the Civil War on his hands, but he was still so worried about what to do with the freed Blacks that he named a Commissioner on Emigration, and sent him off to look for countries that would take in the Blacks he wanted to be rid of. He also sent a statement to Congress calling for all free Blacks to be deported.

With the current exception of the 45th President, US President have generally tended to say only bland, non-controversial things, but here is what some of them had to say about race...

*James Garfield wrote, "I have a strong feeling of repugnance when I think of the Negro being made our political equal and I would be so glad if they could all be colonised, sent off to Heaven or got rid of in any decent way."

*Theodore Roosevelt wrote that he had (quote), "Not been able to think up any solution to the terrible problem offered by the presence of the negro on the continent." As for Indian he said (quote), "I do not go so far as to think that the only good Indian is a dead Indian, but I believe that 9 out of 10 are, and I shouldn't enquire too closely into the health of the 10th."

*William Howard Taft ( the 27th US President) told a group of Black college students (quote), "Your race is adapted to be a race of farmers, first, last, and for all times."

*Warren G Harding (29th US President) thought that the Black and White races should always be separated, and that stated that (quote), "This is not a question of social equality, but a question of recognising a fundamental, eternal, inescapable difference."

* Democrat President Harry Truman, wrote, "I am strongly of the opinion that negros ought to be in Africa, Yellow men in Asia and White men in Europe and America".W He also referred to the Black servants in the White House as (quote), "...an army of Coons."

*Dwight Eisenhower told Supreme Court justice Earl Warren he understood why Southerners wanted racially segregated schools; he said that (quote) "They didn't want their sweet little girls to sit in schools alongside some big Black buck." He said that what he regretted most about his 8 years as President was sending Federal troops to Little Rock, Arkansas, to enforce racial integration in schools.

In fact, it was not until John Kennedy was elected in 1961, that America had a President with views on race that just MIGHT be considered acceptable today. Because now, of course, Americans are expected to think that race just doesn't exist, and even if it did, it would be absolutely immoral to base any decision on race.

The point I would like to emphasise is that this is actually a very recent way of thinking, and that from Colonial times right up through the mid - 20th century, virtually all White Americans people firmly believed that race was an essential part of the American identity. They understood that people of different races are different and that they build different kinds of societies. They believed that only White Europeans would make the United States a kind of country that they would want to pass on to their children.

To conclude. It seems , in sum, that there are two views on the question of race in America ... There is the consensus on race that lasted for more than 300 years, and then there is today's view, i.e; that the race are perfectly equal and interchangeable and that Americans can become Black, Hispanic, Asian, Muslim, Hindu - anything, at all; and not only will it still be America, but it will be better than ever. So which view is correct? I think if you look around and read the news, you'll soon find the answer.


Regards

Dachshund
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Fooloso4 »

From the preface of Thomas G. West’s “Vindicating the Founders”. West is a well regarded conservative political philosopher who has written extensively on the Founders. He supported Trump (I don’t know if he still does):
On slavery: Every leading Founder acknowledged that slavery was wrong. Slavery was legal and practiced in every state in 1776; by the end of the founding era, more than a hundred thousand slaves had been freed by the outlawing of slavery in seven of the original thirteen states or by individual acts of manumission, especially in the South. Most important, the ground for the eventual total abolition of slavery was laid in establishment of the equality principle at the center of the American polity by Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Adams, Washington, and other leading Founders.
http://www.vindicatingthefounders.com/preface/


Matthew Spalding, another supporter of Trump wrote in the conservative Heritage Foundation:
Benjamin Franklin thought that slavery was "an atrocious debasement of human nature" and "a source of serious evils." He and Benjamin Rush founded the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery in 1774.
John Jay, who was the president of a similar society in New York, believed:

the honour of the states, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused.
John Adams opposed slavery his entire life as a "foul contagion in the human character" and "an evil of colossal magnitude." James Madison called it "the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man."
In 1786, Washington wrote of slavery, "there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it." He devised a plan to rent his lands and turn his slaves into paid laborers, and at the end of his presidency he quietly freed several of his own household slaves. In the end, he could take it no more and decreed in his will that his slaves would become free upon the death of his wife. The old and infirm were to be cared for while they lived, and the children were to be taught to read and write and trained in a useful skill until they were age 25. Washington's estate paid for this care until 1833.
During his first term in the House of Burgesses, Thomas Jefferson proposed legislation to emancipate slaves in Virginia, but the motion was soundly defeated. His 1774 draft instructions to the Virginia Delegates for the First Continental Congress, A Summary View of the Rights of British America, called for an end to the slave trade: "The abolition of domestic slavery is the great object of desire in those colonies where it was unhappily introduced in their infant state." That same year, the First Continental Congress agreed to discontinue the slave trade and boycott other nations that engaged in it. The Second Continental Congress reaffirmed this policy in 1776.
In 1774, Rhode Island had already passed legislation providing that all slaves imported thereafter should be freed. In 1776, Delaware prohibited the slave trade and removed restraints on emancipation, as did Virginia in 1778. In 1779, Pennsylvania passed legislation providing for gradual emancipation, as did New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Connecticut in the early 1780s, and New York and New Jersey in 1799 and 1804. In 1780, the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled that the state's bill of rights made slavery unconstitutional. By the time of the U.S. Constitution, every state (except Georgia) had at least proscribed or suspended the importation of slaves.
Thomas Jefferson's 1784 draft plan of government for the western territories prohibited slavery and involuntary servitude after the year 1800. The final Northwest Ordinance of 1787, passed by the Confederation Congress (and passed again two years later by the First Congress and signed into law by President George Washington), prohibited slavery in the future states of Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin. That same year, Jefferson published his Notes on the State of Virginia, which included this passage about slavery:

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever ... I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.

https://www.heritage.org/american-found ... n-founding


In his Gettysburg Address Lincoln famously said:
… government of the people, by the people, for the people …
Lincoln envisioned a nation united by a:
new birth of freedom
The address begins:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
It is this, Lincoln says, that represents the will of the people.
It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -
The security of freedom and equality is an “unfinished work”, “the great task remaining before us”. That work continues today.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by LuckyR »

Wow, news flash. Folks of one group favor those who belong to their own group. The US was never (including right now) a perfectly equal opportunity nation. But that is not a realistic goal/question. The issue is where has the US been when compared to other nations within the same era.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Eduk »

I think if you look around and read the news, you'll soon find the answer.
Why bury the lead? Isn't this the whole point of your post? To somehow argue that racism is beneficial? Please make an actual argument.
If I look around I can clearly see that racism is highly destructive to the racist and those discriminated against. For example I like not being a slave. I think my life is demonstrably better for not being a slave nor a slave owner.
In the UK the most overtly racist areas are the most remote areas with the least diversity which have the lowest standards of living.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Lostlittleboy »

I'm thinking if it were, we wouldn't have had ANY progress. There is always xenophobia. And yeah, our history is marred with what we (whites) have done, but it's getting better I'd hope. Also, the Irish which were white were discriminated against (Gangs of New York).

Also, I've been to Mexico as a white guy and I stuck out like a sore thumb and got looted. I wouldn't say racism is US only. I think America is at least willing to talk about it. It does suck we say some ignorant things and the damned stereotypes but what do you expect when we have a whole scatter plot of every ethnic and race. It's not like whites are the only racist people here.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't actively seek animosity towards other races. I've, if anything, tried to understand them. I've said some racists things in my life, but I largely know nothing of what it's like to be black or Chinese.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by LuckyR »

Lostlittleboy wrote: December 23rd, 2018, 1:17 am I'm thinking if it were, we wouldn't have had ANY progress. There is always xenophobia. And yeah, our history is marred with what we (whites) have done, but it's getting better I'd hope. Also, the Irish which were white were discriminated against (Gangs of New York).

Also, I've been to Mexico as a white guy and I stuck out like a sore thumb and got looted. I wouldn't say racism is US only. I think America is at least willing to talk about it. It does suck we say some ignorant things and the damned stereotypes but what do you expect when we have a whole scatter plot of every ethnic and race. It's not like whites are the only racist people here.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't actively seek animosity towards other races. I've, if anything, tried to understand them. I've said some racists things in my life, but I largely know nothing of what it's like to be black or Chinese.
I agree with your observations. In my opinion in matters of race relations, the US has well known and understood racism that a significant minority of folks are actively trying to lessen. In contrast other western nations don't openly discuss race and thus give the appearance to the casual observer that they are in a better place than the US on this score, when in reality they have significantly worse hidden racism than the US, specifically because it is covert.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Burning ghost »

Time stamp 25:00
Interesting eh?
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Arjen »

@ Dachshund:
Often Aristotle's Ethics are considered to be very progressive and liberal. However, he writes in his Ethica Nichomachea that we should not beat our wives and slaves publicly, because people will frown on it. So, do it privately. He also criticizes Socrates for allowing his woman to sit at the same table he does when eating....
If we compare Aristotle's values to our current values, it certainly doesn't paint a pretty picture...

The point I am making is the same as Burning Ghost, I think: in a different time, different things are considered normal. We do not judge Aristotle to be a wifebeater, a slave beater, or a slave holder, because those things were considered normal in that day and age. We credit him for seeing something else completely (his eudaimonia). With this, he clearly separates himself and surpasses his contemporaries.

So, the founding fathers should be seen in a different light. In that day and age, Slavery was normal and the European people were dominating much of the world by economic and military force. A new continent was being domesticated in that day and age and they tried to be as progressive as they could. But change comes slowly. Mistakes are not often admitted. Still, I think they did good, in the long run, even if some elements were not as progressive as others.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Arjen wrote: January 21st, 2019, 6:41 am I think they did good, in the long run, even if some elements were not as progressive as others.
Do you think the native Americans would agree.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Belindi »

When the Declaration of Independence was created women and blacks were not accorded the status of men at that time. The way modern people interpret the Declaration of Independence includes women and blacks, except by those few intransigents who retain the old time myth.

Dachshund wrote: there is today's view, i.e; that the race are perfectly equal and interchangeable and that Americans can become Black, Hispanic, Asian, Muslim, Hindu - anything, at all; and not only will it still be America, but it will be better than ever. So which view is correct? I think if you look around and read the news, you'll soon find the answer.

There are undoubtedly anatomical differences between what are commonly called 'races'. However the biological anatomical differences don't extend to intelligence or honesty and moral values generally . I think that perhaps Dachshund confuses biology and culture.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Arjen »

Mark1955 wrote: January 25th, 2019, 8:50 am
Arjen wrote: January 21st, 2019, 6:41 am I think they did good, in the long run, even if some elements were not as progressive as others.
Do you think the native Americans would agree.
I agree that this is something bad.
So is what Turkey did to Armenians.
Hitler Germany to Jews.
Cro Magnon to Neanderthals.
etc.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Arjen wrote: January 25th, 2019, 2:06 pmCro Magnon to Neanderthals.
I think the current idea is that actually they just out bred them, and at least partially by interbreeding.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Arjen »

Mark1955 wrote: January 25th, 2019, 2:25 pm
Arjen wrote: January 25th, 2019, 2:06 pmCro Magnon to Neanderthals.
I think the current idea is that actually they just out bred them, and at least partially by interbreeding.
I know, but I thought it was a good addition to show I think those things happened all over the world and that I don't like it.
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by devdemi »

Arjen wrote: January 21st, 2019, 6:41 am @ Dachshund:
So, the founding fathers should be seen in a different light. In that day and age, Slavery was normal and the European people were dominating much of the world by economic and military force. A new continent was being domesticated in that day and age and they tried to be as progressive as they could. But change comes slowly. Mistakes are not often admitted. Still, I think they did good, in the long run, even if some elements were not as progressive as others.

Even though I agree with your point here, a nitpick. If the founders were "of their time" and therefore allowably racist, then their project can't simultaneously be "not of their time".

Alternatively, and you are actually saying this, they were "ahead of their time", to which I'd like to add, "a bunch of hypocrites".
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Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

I agree, in a general way, that there are two histories, two views of that history.
I don't think the founders meant to include blacks or native americans in 'all men are equal' type thinking.
Yes, there is a long history of american leaders who wanted at a minimum segregation.
Yes, the founding fathers had racist ideas. I think the term racist, as a label for a person, makes more sense in more recent times and current times, because I think generally it carries a kind of comparative meaning. Racists despite. There wasn't much despite back then.
But yeah, if they were here now, and believed what they believed then and acted as they did then, for example, if they owned slaves, sure,they'd be racists and white nationalists.

I don't see the past or the founders as necessarily an authority.
So, I don't worry too much about whether they 'really' were racists or not.

One hopes that people alive now can actually notice why they feel the way they do. The right has had some insight in their concept of virtue signaling, related to, in part, racism and race issues. Hopefully they will also come to understand what their real underlying reasons are for hating other races. Likely this will all go slowly.
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Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021