WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 17th, 2019, 1:17 amI don't think the founders meant to include blacks or native Americans in 'all men are equal' type thinking.
Or women.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 17th, 2019, 1:17 amOne hopes that people alive now can actually notice why they feel the way they do.
Why is this likely, what event will overcome their cultural conditioning and the social pressure of those of their immediate community. Why would white America rewrite it's whole history to depict themselves as a bunch of murdering racists intent on expansion by ethnic cleansing.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Belindi »

Or women.
I hope philosphers at least have advanced beyond political correctness. In my role doing philosophy I refer to me, Belindi, as a man among men.Unless there is a special reason to identify myself a female, or, Scottish,and so forth.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Mark1955 wrote: August 17th, 2019, 3:29 am Or women.
Yes.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 17th, 2019, 1:17 amOne hopes that people alive now can actually notice why they feel the way they do.
Why is this likely, what event will overcome their cultural conditioning and the social pressure of those of their immediate community. Why would white America rewrite it's whole history to depict themselves as a bunch of murdering racists intent on expansion by ethnic cleansing.
I wasn't saying it was likely nor did I mean precisely what you mention. I meant that there is a corrollary on the right to virtue signalling, or really a number of them, and one of these is what is actually going on when they judge certain groups or classes of people.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 18th, 2019, 1:27 amI meant that there is a corollary on the right to virtue signalling, or really a number of them, and one of these is what is actually going on when they judge certain groups or classes of people.
I'm sorry you've now confused me even more.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: August 17th, 2019, 4:48 am
Or women.
I hope philosophers at least have advanced beyond political correctness. In my role doing philosophy I refer to me, Belindi, as a man among men.Unless there is a special reason to identify myself a female, or, Scottish,and so forth.
I'm perfectly happy with that, however I suspect a lot of right on woke left wing philosophers are prime advocates of political correctness. I also doubt that more than one or two of the authors of the US constitution were philosophers.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Mark1955 wrote: August 18th, 2019, 3:06 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 18th, 2019, 1:27 amI meant that there is a corollary on the right to virtue signalling, or really a number of them, and one of these is what is actually going on when they judge certain groups or classes of people.
I'm sorry you've now confused me even more.
Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑Yesterday, 6:17 am
One hopes that people alive now can actually notice why they feel the way they do.
Why is this likely, what event will overcome their cultural conditioning and the social pressure of those of their immediate community. Why would white America rewrite it's whole history to depict themselves as a bunch of murdering racists intent on expansion by ethnic cleansing.
I hope that the white Right, like Dachsund, can actually start to look at the source of their feelings about blacks, indigenous people and so on, rather than the facile reasons they have tended to present as the reasons for their hatred. I mentioned that I saw this as a parallel, a partial one, to their insight about virtue signalling by some people on the Left. I think they are on to something there. However they seem to lose this kind of psychological insight when looking in the mirror.

I was not weighing in on the chances of this happening.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 18th, 2019, 4:25 pmI was not weighing in on the chances of this happening.
OK, the reasons why they won't are long and well documented under the heading confirmation bias, which I suspect you know.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: August 17th, 2019, 4:48 am
Or women.
I hope philosophers at least have advanced beyond political correctness. In my role doing philosophy I refer to me, Belindi, as a man among men.Unless there is a special reason to identify myself a female, or, Scottish,and so forth.
Well that would depend on your philosophy, I suspect some theological schools think it critical that you are a woman and behave and think accordingly as ordained by the ideas of god they purport to follow.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Mark1955 wrote: August 19th, 2019, 2:58 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 18th, 2019, 4:25 pmI was not weighing in on the chances of this happening.
OK, the reasons why they won't are long and well documented under the heading confirmation bias, which I suspect you know.
I know about confirmation bias, and I would add in cognitive dissonance avoidance and a variety of defense mechanisms. My post was trying to weigh in on the specifics in the OP in a general way. And in a sense I agreed with a number of things in the OP, while at the same time, not agreeing with something large in the outlook of the OP that is not being focused on. So, it was a bit of a provocation, but really trying not to be taken as assuming that what someone was back then, means we need to agree now.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: August 20th, 2019, 12:14 am
Mark1955 wrote: August 19th, 2019, 2:58 am
OK, the reasons why they won't are long and well documented under the heading confirmation bias, which I suspect you know.
I know about confirmation bias, and I would add in cognitive dissonance avoidance and a variety of defense mechanisms. My post was trying to weigh in on the specifics in the OP in a general way. And in a sense I agreed with a number of things in the OP, while at the same time, not agreeing with something large in the outlook of the OP that is not being focused on. So, it was a bit of a provocation, but really trying not to be taken as assuming that what someone was back then, means we need to agree now.
Fair enough
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Belindi »

Mark1955 wrote: August 19th, 2019, 3:01 am
Belindi wrote: August 17th, 2019, 4:48 am

I hope philosophers at least have advanced beyond political correctness. In my role doing philosophy I refer to me, Belindi, as a man among men.Unless there is a special reason to identify myself a female, or, Scottish,and so forth.
Well that would depend on your philosophy, I suspect some theological schools think it critical that you are a woman and behave and think accordingly as ordained by the ideas of god they purport to follow.
Should theology be a stand -alone academic discipline, or a branch of history and anthropology?

Fascism too is material for social scientists. However we cannot very well submit Dachshund to scientific examination as we don't have access to his sources and affiliations. On the face of it D looks like a man who has been nobbled by a self- seeking cultural faction that we call 'white supremacists'.

It's famously difficult to empathise with people who lived long ago. We can't go and participate in their cultures like anthropologists do among living peoples.I'd approach the question firstly by ascertaining the historical origins of the terms 'racist' and 'white nationalists'.
User avatar
Mark1955
Posts: 739
Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: WERE AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS RACISTS/ WHITE NATIONALISTS ?

Post by Mark1955 »

Belindi wrote: August 20th, 2019, 5:58 am
Mark1955 wrote: August 19th, 2019, 3:01 am
Well that would depend on your philosophy, I suspect some theological schools think it critical that you are a woman and behave and think accordingly as ordained by the ideas of god they purport to follow.
Should theology be a stand -alone academic discipline, or a branch of history and anthropology?
Surely if philosophy is how we think then theology is just a specific subset with a defined way of thinking.
Belindi wrote: August 20th, 2019, 5:58 amIt's famously difficult to empathise with people who lived long ago. We can't go and participate in their cultures like anthropologists do among living peoples. I'd approach the question firstly by ascertaining the historical origins of the terms 'racist' and 'white nationalists'.
I think there is less risk in studying an old culture from afar than of inferring in a modern one while studying it and thus generating false results.

I don't think human emotions have changed much in the last 10,000 years so I'm pretty sure I can understand the feelings of people in an earlier period, just as I can understand the feelings of modern day people I have little in common with.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021