The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

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ktz
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by ktz »

Burning ghost wrote: December 1st, 2018, 10:49 am For a taster ...

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpa ... ping-34083
Very interesting. I have been aware of epigenetics, which I consider to be one of the most revolutionary discoveries in modern biology, but I don't remember encountering McClintock as the progenitor of the concept when originally reading about it. I must have encountered her at some point and forgotten, since I think the maize experiments vaguely ring a bell. I'll have to take a deeper look sometime at her work some time.

Looks like your third-cousin claim is validated by a 2008 paper, An association between the kinship and fertility of human couples, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258915 -- with the caveat that I can see that fertility may not be the best direct measurement of phenotypical success -- maybe people who marry their third and fourth cousins just have more kids, and that's as close as you can get without regularly ending up with hemophilia...
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by Dachshund »

Fooloso4 wrote: November 28th, 2018, 11:08 pm ktz:


I take his arguments apart mostly for my own amusement. It bothers him but does not deter him. It is not entirely for my own amusement though. There may be some who come here who see him citing authors and facts and studies and think that maybe he knows something. It is important to show them that it is mostly misinformation and disinformation.
Dear Fooloso4,

That's interesting. Do you think you would have the moral courage (and intellectual integrity) to debate with me what the current, mainstream (genetic) science says about the origins of the fair (White -skinned ) "Nordic" peoples of North-Western Europe. By "Nordic" people, I mean, in particular, those white ( NOT Black, Brown, Red Yellow or Creamy-coloured) but distinctively and uniquely, pallid, "ALBINIC") - skinned tribes like the Saxons, The Angles, the Jutes and the Vikings who were natives of what we call Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Northwest Germany, today?

Oswald Spengler argues that the unique, remarkable, and ,I would argue, objectively superior, achievements of Western (or what he calls "Faustian") culture/civilisation were primarily a consequence the distinctive character traits/temperament of the White-skinned Nordic people . I agree 100%, and it now seems there is, as I say, irrefutable, empirical evidence to vindicate his notion of the "Faustian spirit/soul" as an essentially White (biogenetically speaking), North-West European, human phenomenon.

Do you have any objections? What I am basically saying is that Western culture is objectively speaking superior to all non-white cultures (Am I, BTW, allowed to say this, or is the claim inherently "racist" and therefore banned from being discussed on this forum?).

If not, let's hear what you have to say?



Regards

Dachshund
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by Fooloso4 »

I am not going to take the bait Dachshund. All of this has been addressed before. You name drop and take statements out of context, always without providing references that will allow us to see the context and the study as a whole. Or perhaps you do not take statements out of context. Perhaps you simply repeat what others who have done that say. This would help explain why you never provide references. When we do the research ourselves and point to what the study actually says and concludes you simply ignore it and cherry pick the findings of some other researcher you think supports your claims.
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by Burning ghost »

ktz wrote: December 1st, 2018, 1:28 pm
Burning ghost wrote: December 1st, 2018, 10:49 am For a taster ...

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpa ... ping-34083
Very interesting. I have been aware of epigenetics, which I consider to be one of the most revolutionary discoveries in modern biology, but I don't remember encountering McClintock as the progenitor of the concept when originally reading about it. I must have encountered her at some point and forgotten, since I think the maize experiments vaguely ring a bell. I'll have to take a deeper look sometime at her work some time.

Looks like your third-cousin claim is validated by a 2008 paper, An association between the kinship and fertility of human couples, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18258915 -- with the caveat that I can see that fertility may not be the best direct measurement of phenotypical success -- maybe people who marry their third and fourth cousins just have more kids, and that's as close as you can get without regularly ending up with hemophilia...
Sorry, just noticed this (reminded of it rather!). If I remember correctiy is was something to do with genetic diversity rather than fertility. I could be wrong though and cannot for the life of me remember the source :(
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by LuckyR »

Dachshund wrote: December 12th, 2018, 7:38 am
Fooloso4 wrote: November 28th, 2018, 11:08 pm ktz:


I take his arguments apart mostly for my own amusement. It bothers him but does not deter him. It is not entirely for my own amusement though. There may be some who come here who see him citing authors and facts and studies and think that maybe he knows something. It is important to show them that it is mostly misinformation and disinformation.
Dear Fooloso4,

That's interesting. Do you think you would have the moral courage (and intellectual integrity) to debate with me what the current, mainstream (genetic) science says about the origins of the fair (White -skinned ) "Nordic" peoples of North-Western Europe. By "Nordic" people, I mean, in particular, those white ( NOT Black, Brown, Red Yellow or Creamy-coloured) but distinctively and uniquely, pallid, "ALBINIC") - skinned tribes like the Saxons, The Angles, the Jutes and the Vikings who were natives of what we call Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Northwest Germany, today?

Oswald Spengler argues that the unique, remarkable, and ,I would argue, objectively superior, achievements of Western (or what he calls "Faustian") culture/civilisation were primarily a consequence the distinctive character traits/temperament of the White-skinned Nordic people . I agree 100%, and it now seems there is, as I say, irrefutable, empirical evidence to vindicate his notion of the "Faustian spirit/soul" as an essentially White (biogenetically speaking), North-West European, human phenomenon.

Do you have any objections? What I am basically saying is that Western culture is objectively speaking superior to all non-white cultures (Am I, BTW, allowed to say this, or is the claim inherently "racist" and therefore banned from being discussed on this forum?).

If not, let's hear what you have to say?



Regards

Dachshund
Ha ha. Oswald Spengler? With ease, my friend.

First of all : who was Oswald Spengler?

"Oswald Arnold Gottfried Spengler (29 May 1880 – 8 May 1936) was a German historian and philosopher of history whose interests included mathematics, science, and art. He is best known for his book The Decline of the West (Der Untergang des Abendlandes), published in 1918 and 1922, covering all of world history."

Sounds ok. But what were his qualifications for anyone giving a hoot about his writing? Perhaps he was an academic with a prestigious position admired by other researchers? BTW what research did he perform?

"After his father's death in 1901 Spengler attended several universities (Munich, Berlin, and Halle) as a private scholar, taking courses in a wide range of subjects. His private studies were undirected. In 1903, he failed his doctoral thesis on Heraclitus (titled Der metaphysische Grundgedanke der Heraklitischen Philosophie, The Metaphysical Fundamental Thought in Heraclitean Philosophy, and conducted under the direction of Alois Riehl) because of insufficient references, which effectively ended his chances of an academic career. He eventually received his Ph.D. from Halle on 6 April 1904. In December 1904, he set to write the secondary dissertation (Staatsexamensarbeit) necessary to qualify as a high school teacher. This became The Development of the Organ of Sight in the Higher Realms of the Animal Kingdom[10] (Die Entwicklung des Sehorgans bei den Hauptstufen des Tierreiches). It was approved and he received his teaching certificate. In 1905 Spengler suffered a nervous breakdown."

Ok, so what? Who cares that he was an advanced degree failure whose pinnacle of achievement was being qualified to teach high school? Perhaps he made great strides through private hard work outside of the traditional academic system.

"Biographers report his life as a teacher was uneventful. He briefly served as a teacher in Saarbrücken and then in Düsseldorf. From 1908 to 1911 he worked at a grammar school (Realgymnasium) in Hamburg, where he taught science, German history, and mathematics.

In 1911, following his mother's death, he moved to Munich, where he would live until his death in 1936. He lived as a cloistered scholar, supported by his modest inheritance. Spengler survived on very limited means and was marked by loneliness. He owned no books, and took jobs as a tutor or wrote for magazines to earn additional income"

So how did make a name for himself? He was essentially the preBreitbart, he vocalized an opinion that a political faction wanted to hear.

"When The Decline of the West was published in the summer of 1918, it was a wild success.[a] The perceived national humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles (1919) and later the economic depression around 1923 fueled by hyperinflation seemed to prove Spengler right. It comforted Germans because it seemingly rationalized their downfall as part of larger world-historical processes."

"The book was widely discussed, even by those who had not read it. Historians took umbrage at his unapologetically non-scientific approach. Thomas Mann compared reading Spengler's book to reading Schopenhauer for the first time. Academics gave it a mixed reception. Max Weber described Spengler as a "very ingenious and learned dilettante", while Karl Popper called the thesis "pointless".

The great historian of antiquity Eduard Meyer thought highly of Spengler, although he also had some criticisms of him. Spengler's obscurity, intuitionalism, and mysticism were easy targets, especially for the Positivists and neo-Kantians who rejected the possibility that there was meaning in world history. The critic and aesthete Count Harry Kessler thought him unoriginal and rather inane, especially in regard to his opinion on Nietzsche. Ludwig Wittgenstein, however, shared Spengler's cultural pessimism."

Of course many point to the popular work of Jared Diamond, of Guns, Germs and Steel fame who documents evidence that post hoc arguments on how history played out culturally do not stand up to rigorous scrutiny.

Who is Jared Diamond?

"Jared Mason Diamond (born September 10, 1937) is an American geographer, historian, and author best known for his popular science books The Third Chimpanzee (1991); Guns, Germs, and Steel (1997, awarded a Pulitzer Prize); Collapse (2005); and The World Until Yesterday (2012). Originally trained in physiology, Diamond is known for drawing from a variety of fields, including anthropology, ecology, geography and evolutionary biology. He is a professor of geography at UCLA."

Qualifications? Research?

"He attended the Roxbury Latin School and earned a Bachelor of Arts in anthropology and history from Harvard College in 1958 and a PhD on the physiology and biophysics of membranes in the gall bladder from Trinity College, University of Cambridge in 1961."

"After graduating from Cambridge, Diamond returned to Harvard as a Junior Fellow until 1965, and, in 1968, became a professor of physiology at UCLA Medical School. While in his twenties he developed a second, parallel, career in ornithology and ecology, specialising in New Guinea and nearby islands. Later, in his fifties, Diamond developed a third career in environmental history and became a professor of geography at UCLA, his current position.[7] He also teaches at LUISS Guido Carli in Rome.[8] He won the National Medal of Science in 1999[9] and Westfield State University granted him an honorary doctorate in 2009.

Diamond originally specialized in salt absorption in the gall bladder.[6][10] He has also published scholarly works in the fields of ecology and ornithology,[11] but is arguably best known for authoring a number of popular-science books combining topics from diverse fields other than those he has formally studied. Because of this academic diversity, Diamond has been described as a polymath."

"His second and best known popular science book, Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies, was published in 1997. It asks why Eurasian peoples conquered or displaced Native Americans, Australians, and Africans, instead of vice versa. It argues that this outcome was not due to biological advantages of Eurasian peoples themselves but instead to features of the Eurasian continent, in particular, its high diversity of wild plant and animal species suitable for domestication and its east/west major axis that favored the spread of those domesticates, people, and technologies for long distances with little change in latitude. The first part of the book focuses on reasons why only a few species of wild plants and animals proved suitable for domestication. The second part discusses how local food production based on those domesticates led to the development of dense and stratified human populations, writing, centralized political organization, and epidemic infectious diseases. The third part compares the development of food production and of human societies among different continents and world regions"
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Dachshund
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by Dachshund »

Fooloso4 wrote: December 12th, 2018, 12:42 pm I am not going to take the bait Dachshund. All of this has been addressed before. You name drop and take statements out of context, always without providing references that will allow us to see the context and the study as a whole. Or perhaps you do not take statements out of context. Perhaps you simply repeat what others who have done that say. This would help explain why you never provide references. When we do the research ourselves and point to what the study actually says and concludes you simply ignore it and cherry pick the findings of some other researcher you think supports your claims.
Dear Philosoph4,

OK, that's fine. Personally, I do not see the need to provide a reference to the mainstream scientific literature for literally every fact one presents in a post on a discussion forum like this. I think, however, that a reference ought be provided to the relevant literature where an entire post is based on a particular scientific claim. I appreciate what you say about feeling you ought not have to personally chase up academic citations where I have not provided them.

Briefly, I can provide a very strong argument to the effect that the primary foundation for what we call Western Civilization was located in what Spengler calls the ""Faustian spirit" of the white-skinned Iron Age Nordic people of Northern Europe. That is, in the germanic tribes ( like the Angles, the Jutes and the Saxons) who inhabited what we call Scandinavia/ Norther Germany) today. If you bring to mind an image of the stereotypical Viking warrior and his general attitudes, world-view,"elan", etc; THIS, according to Spengler, is the kind of spiritual stuff that constitutes the primal locus of the Western ( "Faustian" )Souls.

The Vikings originated in what is now Denmark, Norway and Sweden. They were a brutal, fearless, marauding people, who took to sea to raid other lands. It is extremely important to understand that the legendary violence of the Vikings was deeply rooted in the notion of honour which was a vital concept in pagan Nordic culture. The Vikings saw violence as the chief means to defend honour. For any Norseman, honour was a matter of the utmost importance. The notion: "Death before Dishonour" was an everyday life reality for the Vikings, not just a cheap (and painfully ironic) tattoo on the arm of a blue-collar worker in the 20th century. The Viking Norsemen believed that the time of any individual's death is predetermined - that it is preordained by fate, but that pretty much nothing else in life is. Thus, the Viking understood there were only two possibilities for his life, namely: success and its attendant fame or death. This explains the Vikings tremendous restlessness and lust for adventure, their fearlessness, their avid desire to "boldly go where no one had gone before" in search of wealth and riches, fame and glory, to seize their fate in their own hands and carve out their own destinies - cutting down any resistance encountered along the way with battle axe and sword, to impose their will on the world as violently and as often as was deemed necessary. These are the deep core values upon which Western civilization was founded. These values are comprise the essence of Spengler's conception of the "Faustian Spirit/Soul".

To cut to the chase: (1) I think much of the Nordic culture of the Iron Age Germanic tribes was similar, generally speaking, to Viking culture and to a large extent the values of the Norsemen were profoundly shaped by the landscape with which they dwelled; I mean by the unwelcoming physical geography of North Western Europe : its short days, weakish sunlight, many months of bitterly cold temperatures/snow per year. Scandinavia ( Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Jutland, the Baltic Coast of what we now call Germany) were cold ,harsh environment to inhabit during the age of the Vikings and that of the other Iron Age Nordic hunter-gatherer tribes like the Saxons and Jutes. Just to survive took daring, intellect, a strong will, sharp senses, tremendous resilience, great courage, determination etc. I could write a book about this, so I'll leave it there.

(2) The "Founding Fathers" of the West, that is, the original, ancient "Faustian Souls" upon whose values/behaviours/attitudes our Western civilization was built ( Spengler dates the emergence of genuine Western Culture to around 900 AD) were indeed White, fair-skinned men. There was a paper published in Nature ( Nature, 2014, March 13 , 507/7496, pp 225-228) - which is, as you know, is arguably the most prestigious scientific journal in the world. In this paper we learn that a genetic analysis of 7000 year old human remains from an archaeological site in Sweden strongly suggests that the white skin and blue eyes of the generic North-West European are, historically speaking, a relatively recent development.

My point is this, the cultural achievements chalked up by our Western civilization, in science/technology, in the humanities ( literature, history, philosophy), in the fine arts (sculpture, painting, music), architecture, medicine, in exploration/discovery, in government and politics over the past 1000 odd years are truly astounding; all things considered, Western culture has proven itself to objectively superior of any other major world culture past or present, and Western civilization, in turn, has been the most vital, brilliantly creative, sophisticated and advanced civilization that the world has ever seen. I think it is difficult to deny this (?)

Western culture and civilization have until the mid-20th century been very much driven by the efforts of white-skinned males ( the descendents of the Norsemen I have be speaking about about. But here as Shakespeare would say is "the rub" - from the very beginning of Western civilization, Western societies be they Viking or Anglo-Saxon villages, be they cities like London in the 18th century, Australia in the 19th century, the United States in the 1950s had populations which were always -at the very least - 90% White. When I say White, I mean persons of North Western European (Nordic) descent. Why ? The reason is because over the past 1000 years these White persons have always (generally speaking) preferred not to mix with other non-white ethnic groups. They could easily have done so had they chosen to, but the historical record shows that they simply did not.

In 1965 with the Civil Rights revolution in America, immigration policy was radically reformed. From 1970 onwards there was, in consequence, a dramatic increase in the number of non-White immigrants coming to live in the US from places like Mexico. In fact, as a result of this ongoing influx of non-White immigrants over the past 50 years, by 2042 White Americans will become a minority group in the United States (a fact, BTW, that now requires no reference to the scientific literature, Foolosoph4). With a continually falling White birth rate and an inevitable rise in miscegenation, White-skinned Americans ( again, when I say "White-skinned", I am referencing persons of Nordic descent) will, before long, cease to exist ( biogenetically speaking) in America. If thing continue in the way that they have since the mid - 1960s, Whites in the US will, in short, before too long become brown-skinned people.

If - , or perhaps I should say, when, - this happens it will be - as they say in the football - "Good Night Vienna" for Western culture/civilization. Finis .

For me, that would be an unspeakable tragedy.



Regards

Dachshund
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ktz
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by ktz »

Dachshund wrote: December 14th, 2018, 11:10 am
Briefly, I can provide a very strong argument to the effect that the primary foundation for what we call Western Civilization was located in what Spengler calls the ""Faustian spirit" of the white-skinned Iron Age Nordic people of Northern Europe. That is, in the germanic tribes ( like the Angles, the Jutes and the Saxons) who inhabited what we call Scandinavia/ Norther Germany) today. If you bring to mind an image of the stereotypical Viking warrior and his general attitudes, world-view,"elan", etc; THIS, according to Spengler, is the kind of spiritual stuff that constitutes the primal locus of the Western ( "Faustian" )Souls.
Uhhhh. This has got to be the funniest one yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust:
Faust is the protagonist of a classic German legend, based on the historical Johann Georg Faust (c. 1480–1540).

The erudite Faust is highly successful yet dissatisfied with his life, which leads him to make a pact with the Devil, exchanging his soul for unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures. The Faust legend has been the basis for many literary, artistic, cinematic, and musical works that have reinterpreted it through the ages. "Faust" and the adjective "Faustian" imply a situation in which an ambitious person surrenders moral integrity in order to achieve power and success for a delimited term.
You sure you want to go with your "very strong argument" that describes White people as "Faustian"? Do you understand the meaning of the term you are using here? I can see why you generally do your best not to provide references. Turns out if you reference someone you don't understand, you might end up making a case that collectively selling one's soul to the devil in exchange for technics is a superior racial strategy.

I guess it's good to know where you really stand, at least. What did the devil get for you when you sold your soul to him? I can't tell, since clearly it wasn't unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures. Must be some inflation going on in the economy of Hell these days.


Anyway, besides LuckyR's attack on Spengler that you ignored, one quick trip to the Decline of the West Wikipedia article shoots down your whole Spengler position:
Spengler's idea of race has nothing to do with ethnic identity, indeed he was hostile to racists in that sense. The book talks about a population becoming a race when it is united in outlook. Possibly diverse ethnic origins are not a concern.

Even Conservapedia's article on Spengler says he thought the Nazi's racism was stupid. The reason nobody shares your racist point of view is not because we are afraid of seeming racist or offending anyone. It's because educated people, both liberal and conservative, now understand that racial discrimination is a stupid idea. Just like we know now the medical technique of bloodletting is a stupid idea, even though it was the standard of care in every hospital in the world for almost a millenium. Race in the modern world is just a tiny facet of a person's identity. Racism and tribalism only makes sense if a culture has not yet established a civil society. Or if you're someone who's trying to get poor people to hate each other so you have someone to blame if they try to ask for higher wages.

I get that you had bad experiences with black people in your past. I'm sorry for that, it happens and it sucks. But you should seriously take a second to consider if it's smart to let those past experiences waste your time and your life on a stupid idea. Every time you continue to post on this kind of stuff, everyone but you can see the logical fallacy being committed. Ultimately as humans we are all in this together. Death won't care about the color of your skin when he comes for you.

Oh well. See you whenever your alt-right blog posts next. If you're so committed to this idea, maybe it's best you just stay in that echo chamber for the sake of your ego. But before you go, do us a favor and leave a comment for them to up their game a bit. I mean, I'm getting embarrassed on your behalf, here.
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Aristocles
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Re: The Truth about Race in America Today and Why it Matters

Post by Aristocles »

Dachshund:

As LuckyR mentions. Looking for clarity upon what you consider “White.” From what I read, it was a will to survive (begging many questions)?

As Burning Ghost mentions, just as “black” being a race, I would find it too overly simplistic to just state “white” as if that is clear.

Then, the genetics and race ranked intelligence??

Can you start small and define “white” with something maybe 3 people here may come close to agreeing with, then move on to the larger stretch?
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