So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

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Mark1955
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Mark1955 »

blubarb wrote: December 24th, 2018, 12:16 am As many are aware, Donald Trump has declared a US withdrawal from Syria after talking to Tayyip Erdoğan. Many were taken by surprise are arguing against his position but the talking point (and I think it's a talking point) coming from the right side of the Republican Party in defence of his position is: "why are you surprised? The president told you that is what he would do and that's what he has done". It is correct that he did say this, but that somehow doesn't seem to negate the consequences of the decision that seems to extend beyond the perceived truth of that statement that may have serious implications for the US national interest. My question is, how is the claim of "I said it and then I did it so what's the problem" countered? If I, for example, tell you that I intend to steal from my neighbour and then I do exactly that why should you be surprised. The only argument I can see going forward is to separate the act of disclosure from the consequences of the act to others. Does declaring I will do something can't abrogate me from the consequences of the act? Is that not the argument against those who would say, "well he did say he was going to do it..."
Are the surprises perhaps that he has a) remembered what he said he'd do for so long, b) not changed his mind.

In a more generic sense so many people say one thing but do another that hypocrisy is almost the norm and honesty surprises.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Alias »

I just thought of another argument against the Trump's wall.
On top of the usual cost overruns, he'd spend another $billion on the giant neon sign of his name.
And he'd insist on putting on the north side.
That alone is reason enough for Texas to go solid blue.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Candidates state that they are going to do a variety of things. Election of a candidate does not mean voter approval of each and every one of those things. The election of a candidate does not mean that military strategy and policy deliberation comes to an end when a candidate enters office. That person is not given free reign to do whatever he or she said they would do without regard to consequences. The election of an autocratic leader does not mean democracy has been replaced by autocracy. Without necessary countermeasures, however, that danger increases.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Alias »

I like how the expression "free rein", which meant letting a horse choose its own direction (usually homeward), has turned into the political variant "free reign", meaning letting a head of state do as he pleases - back to the divine right of sovereigns. It's very much in keeping with the times.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Alias:
I like how the expression "free rein" …
A grammatical error that because of the frequency of its use is no longer seen by many as an error.
… back to the divine right of sovereigns.
Point taken. A President with the power to do whatever he said he was going to do reigns freely, unless there is some means of holding the reins, as in checks and balances.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Alias »

Yes, that's exactly how it's generally perceived now.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by h_k_s »

blubarb wrote: December 24th, 2018, 12:16 am As many are aware, Donald Trump has declared a US withdrawal from Syria after talking to Tayyip Erdoğan. Many were taken by surprise are arguing against his position but the talking point (and I think it's a talking point) coming from the right side of the Republican Party in defence of his position is: "why are you surprised? The president told you that is what he would do and that's what he has done". It is correct that he did say this, but that somehow doesn't seem to negate the consequences of the decision that seems to extend beyond the perceived truth of that statement that may have serious implications for the US national interest. My question is, how is the claim of "I said it and then I did it so what's the problem" countered? If I, for example, tell you that I intend to steal from my neighbour and then I do exactly that why should you be surprised. The only argument I can see going forward is to separate the act of disclosure from the consequences of the act to others. Does declaring I will do something can't abrogate me from the consequences of the act? Is that not the argument against those who would say, "well he did say he was going to do it..."
Trump is simply keeping a campaign promise, you are correct about that.

I happen to agree with him -- that all our U.S. troops should return home from Syria (a huge mistake by Obama) and Iraq (a huge mistake by Dubya and his dad) and Afghanistan (since UBL had left A-stan and was killed by USN SEALs there is no reason to stay there). We interjected ourselves into those regions when Ross Perot told us to stay out. We should have stayed out. Hunting UBL down was justified. Hunting Saddam was not.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by Mark1955 »

h_k_s wrote: December 31st, 2018, 11:46 am
blubarb wrote: December 24th, 2018, 12:16 am As many are aware, Donald Trump has declared a US withdrawal from Syria after talking to Tayyip Erdoğan. Many were taken by surprise are arguing against his position but the talking point (and I think it's a talking point) coming from the right side of the Republican Party in defence of his position is: "why are you surprised? The president told you that is what he would do and that's what he has done". It is correct that he did say this, but that somehow doesn't seem to negate the consequences of the decision that seems to extend beyond the perceived truth of that statement that may have serious implications for the US national interest. My question is, how is the claim of "I said it and then I did it so what's the problem" countered? If I, for example, tell you that I intend to steal from my neighbour and then I do exactly that why should you be surprised. The only argument I can see going forward is to separate the act of disclosure from the consequences of the act to others. Does declaring I will do something can't abrogate me from the consequences of the act? Is that not the argument against those who would say, "well he did say he was going to do it..."
Trump is simply keeping a campaign promise, you are correct about that.

I happen to agree with him -- that all our U.S. troops should return home from Syria (a huge mistake by Obama) and Iraq (a huge mistake by Dubya and his dad) and Afghanistan (since UBL had left A-stan and was killed by USN SEALs there is no reason to stay there). We interjected ourselves into those regions when Ross Perot told us to stay out. We should have stayed out. Hunting UBL down was justified. Hunting Saddam was not.
While I agree with your basic premise it does seem to me that Trump is pulling out at a very convenient time for himself, a chunk of the US defence industry and Erdogan. Sell the Patriot system to Turkey and agree to pull out and let Turkey massacre the Kurds as a way of ensuring the sale goes through.
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Re: So what is the counter argument to this Trump talking point?

Post by h_k_s »

Mark1955 wrote: December 31st, 2018, 12:08 pm
h_k_s wrote: December 31st, 2018, 11:46 am

Trump is simply keeping a campaign promise, you are correct about that.

I happen to agree with him -- that all our U.S. troops should return home from Syria (a huge mistake by Obama) and Iraq (a huge mistake by Dubya and his dad) and Afghanistan (since UBL had left A-stan and was killed by USN SEALs there is no reason to stay there). We interjected ourselves into those regions when Ross Perot told us to stay out. We should have stayed out. Hunting UBL down was justified. Hunting Saddam was not.
While I agree with your basic premise it does seem to me that Trump is pulling out at a very convenient time for himself, a chunk of the US defence industry and Erdogan. Sell the Patriot system to Turkey and agree to pull out and let Turkey massacre the Kurds as a way of ensuring the sale goes through.
I have long been a proponent of carving out a section from Iraq to create a modern geo-political Kurdistan.
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